I don't get it . why do you have to use Auto clutch if you cant blip the the throttle on the down shifts? Cant you just shift normally?

Is it really that much slower? The best thing I find about blipping the throttle on the down shift is it sounds cooler. Granted, I'm not a mega fast driver or anything and have been using manual clutch + shifter (without auto blip) for ages. I cant really see that heel toeing would shave even half a second of my times.

Why? try downshifting in the FZ50 without blipping, then you will see why.

I suppose you need a very firm brake pedal to do that.
Try this mod

http://forum.racesimcentral.co ... p=3558554&postcount=1

For me heel&toe-ing worked better than I expected (my feet are size 14...)
I made my brake pedal stiffer with a foam ball, now I can blip really fast without messing up the braking.

Quote from danowat :

Why? try downshifting in the FZ50 without blipping, then you will see why.

ok then,
here's 3 laps of SO Chicane, without blipping the throttle once.

Like I said, I'm hardly going to be braking any records, but I doubt its my shifting that's slowing me down. Especially since that was the 1st time I drove the FZ5 since the latest patch

I am trying to help here btw

Also, heel/toe doesn't necessarily literally mean heel.

The most common practice that I have seen and heard described is a more rolling motion with your foot.

You brake with the ball of your foot in the lower right corner of the brake pedal. Your foot should overhang the gas pedal. (This is where it is critical to have the right brake pedal height otherwise you end up applying gas when you are braking because the outside of your foot hits the gas.)

When you are ready to blip, clutch, roll your foot using the lower or mid outside of your foot to blip the throttle, change gears, and declutch. You must maintain steady pressure on the brake pedal without lifting up on it. If you lift up, you will get very jagged braking and risk a lot of lockups when you press back down again.

The main point here is that you do not need to rotate your heel over the gas pedal and kick down with your leg. That method is valid too, but it is not used as much as the rolling method (from what I have seen and heard). I think the actual heel method requires either a wide gap in pedals or very small feet.

I have my pedals about 2.5 inches apart. This is about the same as my real car. It is close enough to do the rolling method for me with my foot size. This method does pretty much require shoes (or "house" shoes like I use) of some sort. Otherwise, your foot gets very sore from holding a lot of pressure on the corner edge of the brake.

You shouldn't become a slave to Heel-toe downshifting, if you don't learn to keep the car stable and fast without it, then you are screwed if you can't do it for any reason. I have combined peddals, so I can't heel-toe, so I've had learned another technique.

My dad used to race cars before I was in his life, and untill I brought it up, he'd never heard of it. To qoute him "That sounds like a load of crap, I don't care if 'Professionals' are doing it, it's a waste of time.
I'll teach you the right way to drive a race car."
And he did, I may not be that fast, but I'm a whole lot faster after he showed me the basics.

He even did both, he tried heel-toe and then he did it his way. There was no difference in the way the car reacted either way, other than engine braking, but thats negligable. According to him, the only use for it is on single shifts where you want to engine brake before going around a loose turn. Even then, it's not realy heel-toe, it's just a blip, and all that does is save you from having to use the brakes.

So what is your fathers method, and how come he hasn't heard of the technique that 99.9% of racing drivers have used since the 1890s?

Quote from DragonCommando :

"That sounds like a load of crap, I don't care if 'Professionals' are doing it, it's a waste of time.
I'll teach you the right way to drive a race car."
And he did, I may not be that fast, but I'm a whole lot faster after he showed me the basics.

Let me guess something low powered and probably FWD and very forgiving on the limit? Heel and toe is not needed for normal driving, but for racing you need to be able to blip to maintain stability and reduce the load on the car in order to blip if one wishes to make a clutched shift either the throttle and brake or the clutch and brake have to be operated by one foot.

Quote :

He even did both, he tried heel-toe and then he did it his way. There was no difference in the way the car reacted either way, other than engine braking, but thats negligable. According to him, the only use for it is on single shifts where you want to engine brake before going around a loose turn. Even then, it's not realy heel-toe, it's just a blip, and all that does is save you from having to use the brakes.

You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about do you? By blipping you reduce the increase in engine braking through changing down gear.

H & T is just a way of blipping on downshift, with cars like the FZ5, you really MUST blip on downshift, unless you want to "back it in" on every corner.

Danowat, post a replay of a few laps around some track in the FZ5, I still really cant see why your needing to blip to drive the FZ5 with manual controls. Maybe your down shifting too early or some thing.

Actually you do not need to heel toe to be fast, all depends on your driving style coupled with your diff setup. Take some bite out of your coast locking.

Heel toe is one technique used by drivers but not all do. Mark Scaife, one of the top Aussie V8 drivers does not use the technique. I watched his feet a whole lap of Bathurst via foot cam one year.

He drives with left foot on clutch only and right foot for brakes and gas but only one pedal at a time.

The fastest way around the track is the one you are most comfortable with.

Quote from Woz :

Actually you do not need to heel toe to be fast, all depends on your driving style coupled with your diff setup. Take some bite out of your coast locking.

Heel toe is one technique used by drivers but not all do. Mark Scaife, one of the top Aussie V8 drivers does not use the technique. I watched his feet a whole lap of Bathurst via foot cam one year.

He drives with left foot on clutch only and right foot for brakes and gas but only one pedal at a time.

The fastest way around the track is the one you are most comfortable with.

Exactly.

So many people have become so crazed over heel-toe, they fail to realize that it's not the only right way to do it.

On a properly set up car, you don't NEED to heel-toe.

My dad actualy does it an odd way, he puts it in nutral and finnished braking, and then puts it in the right gear and clutches out as he hits the throttle.

I asked him if that takes control of the car away from him, and he showed me why it doesn't. It takes the same time both ways to get the power back on, and they both are just as smooth.

And the cars he drove where all muscle cars, big V8s with alot of power.

He also owned a Datsun 280xz SE. Manual transmission of cource.

Quote from Woz :

Actually you do not need to heel toe to be fast, all depends on your driving style coupled with your diff setup. Take some bite out of your coast locking.

Heel toe is one technique used by drivers but not all do. Mark Scaife, one of the top Aussie V8 drivers does not use the technique. I watched his feet a whole lap of Bathurst via foot cam one year.

He drives with left foot on clutch only and right foot for brakes and gas but only one pedal at a time.

The fastest way around the track is the one you are most comfortable with.

Skaife is a heel-toer. At least in this vid he is:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=6Dv3whihq8I

There are a couple of left foot brakers in V8 Supercars, they still blip, but don't use the clutch on downshift:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=azpqTZ6WeJk

Quote from DragonCommando :

Exactly.

So many people have become so crazed over heel-toe, they fail to realize that it's not the only right way to do it.

On a car setup properly for not using heel/toe, you don't NEED to heel-toe.

My dad actualy does it an odd way, he puts it in nutral and finnished braking, and then puts it in the right gear and clutches out as he hits the throttle.

I asked him if that takes control of the car away from him, and he showed me why it doesn't. It takes the same time both ways to get the power back on, and they both are just as smooth.

And the cars he drove where all muscle cars, big V8s with alot of power.

He also owned a Datsun 280xz SE. Manual transmission of cource.

Fixed that for you

Sounds like your Dad is using a style that derived from the need to double clutch. It doesn't matter either way. Being smooth is the most important part. However, you have to have the car engaged in gear before the corner entry. Even if you are careful letting the clutch out, the rear will grab, and around you go. Also, you need to use maintenance throttle through the corner and you can't do this with the car in neutral.

The only absolutely necessary thing to be fast is to insure that you have the car in the proper gear for exiting the corner.

However, using proper heel/toe technique in a car setup for it, you will be faster than not using it. Most cars will benefit from using heel/toe and you would be sightly slower in those cars if you were not using it (for most of us though, it wouldn't matter. Only really skilled people can demonstrate the difference). Yes, if the car is setup to not use heel/toe, you will probably be just as fast.

I personally think that you do have more control using heel/toe. But that is my opinion.

Thanks for correcting that Hallen, thats actualy what I was trying to say, proper settup is a key to the style of driving you want to do.


I think I made an error when I described it the first time though, you actualy get in gear before the corner. I think I said something like at the apex the first time I described it. That would be retarded to do.

You still blip with this technique, it's just that you do it once.
And you double clutch on up shifts, but I don't see a use for it on a car with a fast throttle responce since the mechanical reason for it is to give the engine time to slow down before you pull the clutch out.

I double clutch on the XRG and that little car I can't remember the name of, because they don't drop off fast enough, I'm used to cars with fast throttle-off responce.
I actualy killed the clutch in a rally race with the XRG because I kept engageing the clutch to fast after the shift.

Quote from Hallen :

Also, heel/toe doesn't necessarily literally mean heel.

The most common practice that I have seen and heard described is a more rolling motion with your foot.

not strictly true, i do heel and toe and use my heel and my toe to do it (make my foot perpendicular with the pedals toe on brake, heel on accelerator) as i feel this is the most comfortable/best way for me to do it, the foot rolling method as you said is another way to do it, same method just alot more people use it as car pedals have become closer together as cars have moved on one of my mates does the foot rolling as he prefers that method and my dad does the brake and clutch with the left foot and accelerator with the right... its all down to choice and how you feel comfortable doing it

The ultimate downshifting IS heel and toe, no question about it. But you can be fast without it. It depends on how much power the car has and how hard the clutch is. If you have a 400bhp car and a unsprung puck clutch you HAVE to heel and toe. Not only will you ruin the balance at corner entry, you will also destroy the driveline, especially the cluch will overheat and wear extremly fast. I cant heel and toe yet but i HAVE to learn it. When i AutoX and track my car irl (Rx-7) the rear is all over the place when downshifting. But as i said, if you have 120bhp and a stock or realtivly weak clutch its no problem.

My problem with heel-toe with MOMO pedals (new camera, so here's a pic)



With my foot rotated around as in the pic, I have the beginnings of pain in my leg muscles from the stretching. Any further and it hurts. The throttle is spaced too far right, on close to even plane with the brake, and too far up.

The following crude drawing shows the difference between what spacing would be like in my (old) car with a clutch....



MOMO pedals aren't quite as easy to modify as simply unbolting the G25 pedals and adding spacer or mounting to something else.

Also what would help is a hanging pedal system such as in Niel's pedals. The leverage on the bottom corners would be far greater on a hanging setup than what we have with stock PC pedals. G25 pedals would be simple to fix. Open them (if after warranty), unbolt the pedal system from the base, make a new base structure and bolt them in a hanging position.

Quote from mrodgers :

The following crude drawing shows the difference between what spacing would be like in my (old) car with a clutch....

I see a quick fix... drill holes in a piece of wood and get some zip ties

Quote from farcar :

Skaife is a heel-toer. At least in this vid he is:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=6Dv3whihq8I

There are a couple of left foot brakers in V8 Supercars, they still blip, but don't use the clutch on downshift:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=azpqTZ6WeJk

Ah, thats right he didn't LFB

Bugger. Who was I thinking of?

Quote from mrodgers :

My problem with heel-toe with MOMO pedals (new camera, so here's a pic)

They look the same as the DFP pedals. I find if you keep your foot in line with the pedals and simply place you foot between the two, you might want shoes just to make your foot have a wider reach for this you can then move each side of your foot up and down a lot more accurately and comfortably than trying to heel and toe conventionally. I thought it wasn't possible to right foot brake with my setup properly until I tried this