I understand, the goal is REALISM.

Yet, the new patch should include two modes:

1) Simulation

2) Arcade

For hardcore fans, I guess, mode 1 its ok, they want to believe they are driving "the real thing".

Still, I play (PLAY) LFS because I like to drive and because I like to play. I have never liked that we have to struggle with setups, on top of that now tyres are useless and we have a clutch that forces us to be "gentle". the ARCADE mode would be as real as the SIM one, but it would not allow for setups, tyres and clutch would last forever and so we would only test our skills TO DRIVE, not to be a mechanic or to believe we are having more "realism".

Again, I like to test myself DRIVING, I like to compete with others to try my skills against theirs. THATS IT, if I want to race a car I would buy a gokart or maybe inscribe myself in a real league.

Sorry for the developers, and Im sure some of you readers will hate me and even (maybe) insult me. But anyway, Im just exposing MY opinion.

LFS has the word simulation in it... why should there be any "arcade" about it? lol

Quote from Bodhidharmazen :

I understand, the goal is REALISM.

Yet, the new patch should include two modes:

1) Simulation

2) Arcade

For hardcore fans, I guess, mode 1 its ok, they want to believe they are driving "the real thing".

Still, I play (PLAY) LFS because I like to drive and because I like to play. I have never liked that we have to struggle with setups, on top of that now tyres are useless and we have a clutch that forces us to be "gentle".

No thanks, I like to test mysefl DRIVING, I like to compete with others to try my skills against theirs. THATS IT, if I want to race a car I would buy a gokart or maybe inscribe myself in a real league.

Sorry for the developers, and Im sure some of you readers will hate me and even (maybe) insult me. But anyway, Im just exposing MY opinion.

as pointed out by u a coin has 2 sides!and u can see-use the one u like!

Its a simulator, if you want a game, go out and buy TDU.

Also, you dont have to be gentle with it, just dont leave the clutch half way down and have full gas on.

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=35666

enjoy

Quote from Krammeh :

Also, you dont have to be gentle with it, just dont leave the clutch half way down and have full gas on.

ooohh common!!!! you carnt expect him to take all this in in one go!!! one step at a time!

Quote from Gizz :

ooohh common!!!! you carnt expect him to take all this in in one go!!! one step at a time!

I have a Logitech Momo, I don't have a clutch. And maybe he carnt expeact itt, beucaouse wi dount knou whatys tthat wourd

Quote from Krammeh :

Its a simulator, if you want a game, go out and buy TDU.

Also, you dont have to be gentle with it, just dont leave the clutch half way down and have full gas on.

Of course it is a simulator. But you are not in the camp of the ones who believe it is REALLY simulating, right? All LFS does is EMULATE some (selected) physical variables and give us some of the feelings actual drivers have. It is FAR AWAY from being complete (as you all know).

Now, it is also a GAME, and if it is not a game, then I want something that doesn't exist. All the REALISM you want in the physical model, but WITHOUT the need to be a mechanic nor deal with tyres or clutch heat. In other words, having a place to ENJOY THE DRIVING WITHOUT THE LIMITATIONS OF REALITY.

Maybe Im the only one who would be happy with it, that might be true.

Quote from XCNuse :

LFS has the word simulation in it... why should there be any "arcade" about it? lol

I do not mean "arcade" like in NFS or stuff like that, did you read what I wrote? I cleared it up in my last post, just in case

What I like is to drive, it would be nice to drive without "reality" limitations. It would be nice to have a SIMULATION (to use the word most of you love) that were fantastic with physics leaving us the responsability to be fantastic with our driving skills.

If you want a simulation, why don't you all ask for people actually driving to the track, getting down of your cars to walk to the track, then go to your pit and look for the keys of your car while and put some gas in it? That would be a simulation

Quote from Bodhidharmazen :

If you want a simulation, why don't you all ask for people actually driving to the track, getting down of your cars to walk to the track, then go to your pit and look for the keys of your car while and put some gas in it? That would be a simulation

Because... This is why we play LFS

Or for the obvious reasons; expenses, time, .. expenses.. time.. etc.

Well, now it is bit closer to driving, still misses a lot like radiator failures, engine damage because of that, limited setups and such, but getting closer to driving all time.

What you seem to want is that you would like to play game, not drive and race in simulation, that is fine, but as LFS goal is to be realistic simulation that won't be possible in future, I'm afraid.

Play S1.

Quote from XCNuse :

Because... This is why we play LFS

Or for the obvious reasons; expenses, time, .. expenses.. time.. etc.

Well, obviously, in that sense, what I ask is not insane.

Quote from JTbo :

Well, now it is bit closer to driving, still misses a lot like radiator failures, engine damage because of that, limited setups and such, but getting closer to driving all time.

What you seem to want is that you would like to play game, not drive and race in simulation, that is fine, but as LFS goal is to be realistic simulation that won't be possible in future, I'm afraid.

I'm disappointed by people not reading all my argument. I WANT TO DRIVE, if the physics are realistic, thats welcome. That, in my book, its a simulation. The rest should be optional. The world sucks, thats why you all want a simulation to suck?

Quote from ATC Quicksilver :

Play S1.

do you understand, at all, what I'm arguing here?

So you want it to be a simulation, but without it copying the real world in any way other than physics? I do get your point, but its not like its suddenly turned into Netkar overnight. Infact Scawen has shown he still wants it to be played like a game, HUD, custom views and the ability to pick up and play, rather than sit in a garage flicking switches. The deal is, we have custom views and HUD, and the pick up and play style of gaming, but on the track its a realistic simulation.

My play S1 comment was valid, since it had quite good physics, with no clutch damage, car damage, tyre wear or fuel.

Well, I dont know what your "MAYOR" has been doing.. =/

But your asking him to do what now?

Quote from Bodhidharmazen :

I'm disappointed by people not reading all my argument. I WANT TO DRIVE, if the physics are realistic, thats welcome. That, in my book, its a simulation. The rest should be optional. The world sucks, thats why you all want a simulation to suck?

Well, from this side of screen it is you that don't understand what driving simulation includes, you like to have tires that don't get hot, clutch that keeps cool, making it less like driving, but more like gaming.

Part of simulating driving is clutch and tire temps, good driver keeps those in good level trough race and wins partly because that, it is part of driving, very important part.

If you like just play driving a car, there are other titles, Project Torque for example, that might be directed more towards users with similar interest of you.

LFS is evolving to more and more towards sim and that will not fit to all, then there is choice that must be made, to continue or not, does it offer what you would like to see, is realism what you want. It can very well be that at some point your road and LFS road is not leading to same direction any more.

Quote from Bodhidharmazen :

I understand, the goal is REALISM.

Yet, the new patch should include two modes:

1) Simulation

2) Arcade

For hardcore fans, I guess, mode 1 its ok, they want to believe they are driving "the real thing".

Still, I play (PLAY) LFS because I like to drive and because I like to play. I have never liked that we have to struggle with setups, on top of that now tyres are useless and we have a clutch that forces us to be "gentle". the ARCADE mode would be as real as the SIM one, but it would not allow for setups, tyres and clutch would last forever and so we would only test our skills TO DRIVE, not to be a mechanic or to believe we are having more "realism".

Again, I like to test myself DRIVING, I like to compete with others to try my skills against theirs. THATS IT, if I want to race a car I would buy a gokart or maybe inscribe myself in a real league.

Sorry for the developers, and Im sure some of you readers will hate me and even (maybe) insult me. But anyway, Im just exposing MY opinion.

See, LFS is a simulation. It has always been intended to be a simulation. I see where you're coming from, though... and that's what games like GTR, Race, rFactor and such are for.

Also, if your tires and clutch don't last then you have a poor driving technique. I have absolutely no troubles keeping the tires on my car and my clutch cool, and I don't try to be gentle or anything, I just drive. Granted I'm not and alien, but I'm not exactly the slowest guy out there, either.

For those of you that don't know any spanish, I bracketed the title for you people.

Quote from XCNuse :

For those of you that don't know any spanish, I bracketed the title for you people.

Boooo... I mean thanks.

Quote from ATC Quicksilver :

So you want it to be a simulation, but without it copying the real world in any way other than physics? I do get your point, but its not like its suddenly turned into Netkar overnight. Infact Scawen has shown he still wants it to be played like a game, HUD, custom views and the ability to pick up and play, rather than sit in a garage flicking switches. The deal is, we have custom views and HUD, and the pick up and play style of gaming, but on the track its a realistic simulation.

My play S1 comment was valid, since it had quite good physics, with no clutch damage, car damage, tyre wear or fuel.

Thanks then, I misunderstood your comment as being sarcastic or something like that. Thats exactly what I was going to argue, why on earth all "realists" allow LFS to have custom views? It is a game, and it should allow us to race without having to deal with some things.

Now, I already have S2, and I want to enjoy the game, its just that I don't like the attitude of some screaming " itz all about realisssmmm duuuuddeee" when somebody criticizes the work done with this patch.

Quote from XCNuse :

For those of you that don't know any spanish, I bracketed the title for you people.

Way to go party crasher -.-

Quote from JTbo :

Part of simulating driving is clutch and tire temps, good driver keeps those in good level trough race and wins partly because that, it is part of driving, very important part.

If you like just play driving a car, there are other titles, Project Torque for example, that might be directed more towards users with similar interest of you.

LFS is evolving to more and more towards sim and that will not fit to all, then there is choice that must be made, to continue or not, does it offer what you would like to see, is realism what you want. It can very well be that at some point your road and LFS road is not leading to same direction any more.

Thanks for your answer. I will look at that Project Torque. And Im sure I will give LFS another try, I might be disappointed, but not to the point of hating it

Quote from MAGGOT :

Also, if your tires and clutch don't last then you have a poor driving technique. I have absolutely no troubles keeping the tires on my car and my clutch cool, and I don't try to be gentle or anything, I just drive. Granted I'm not and alien, but I'm not exactly the slowest guy out there, either.

Yes, I will give it another try (and another) in order to get accustomed to the new patch. I was venting, in a way, and realizing that yes, I do like the physics simulation but not the part about having to be a mechanic to deal with setups, nor dealing with clutches and the rest of the new stuff.

Quote from XCNuse :

For those of you that don't know any spanish, I bracketed the title for you people.

Err, thanks, but it would be better to correct it, can you?

Quote from Bodhidharmazen :

Yes, I will give it another try (and another) in order to get accustomed to the new patch. I was venting, in a way, and realizing that yes, I do like the physics simulation but not the part about having to be a mechanic to deal with setups, nor dealing with clutches and the rest of the new stuff.

I don't know how to setup a car, either. I can adjust gear ratios to suit the track (well, final drive anyways) but aside from that the only setup changes I make are changing the tire brands to match the car (aesthetics are important, too! :P Can't have 'Evostar' plastered all over the car with 'Torro' tires now, can we?). The clutch heat is something I can't believe people are having an issue with. I haven't had a single problem in any car, and I've done some 40 lappers against the AI. My CT gauge is only ever about 2 pixels full. I also haven't had any problems with tires, and I've made them last quite long, too. Some race car setups may need camber adjustments, though, as some of them had their base camber increased in the patch. If your old GTR/S-S setups now can't go 3 laps without burning out the tires, try that.

The new changes are for the better, and by no means make it more difficult to drive imho. I barely even notice them; especially since I've been using manual throttle cut and blip for ever, and manual clutch for a few months.

Quote from Bodhidharmazen :

I was going to argue, why on earth all "realists" allow LFS to have custom views?

Cockpit view is only that can be allowed in sake of realism, this should be configurable only that much that with different display setups it could be adjusted to get realistic view. With any other arcade like view there should be bright red ARCADE text flashing on screen and buzzer sound should be played that could not be turned off, not even by removing files. In replay thing is of course different, you can have had cameras in different positions and in there user view would be also nice for making movies only.

Something like that would be nice

If it doesn't put limitations on the realism for the rest of us, I can't think of any good reason not to include driving aids for newcomers to sim-racing or people who just want a more casual experience. I don't think there is a pressing need for them, and they ought to be discouraged because you're really selling yourself short if you let the computer do a lot of the driving for you, but it never hurts to have options.

I suspect a lot of this is just a knee-jerk reaction to the changes in Y and will blow over pretty soon though. I'm pretty new to LFS but I was driving correctly before the patch. I actually didn't know you could get away with flat-shifting and such before and I would have been upset about that had I known- I don't want to put myself at a disadvantage because I want to drive closely as possible to a real car. That is upsetting.

Overall though, I think it would be a good idea to include a 'beginner' mode (please, let's not call it arcade- a sim-racer with all the aids turned on is still a far cry from an arcade game) at some point in the development of LFS. Of course, I certainly wouldn't consider it a priority.

I do think it would be in the best interst of everyone on these forums to be a little more open to other people's opinions. We know that racing sims are most rewarding when you put the effort into doing it properly, and politely explaining that while still respecting the othr position will be better for us all in the end. Would you prefer people simply gave up on LFS because they found it too difficult, or would you rather they figured out why it is that we appreciate realism down to the smallest detail and practice so that they become accomplished racers against whom we can compete?

Personally, the most fun I've ever had with sim-racers was way back in the beginning when I could barely keep the car on the road and progress came in epiphanies and great whopping chunks of time instead of hundreths of a second. It's the learning process itself that I find so rewarding.

There are a lot of great, friendly and helpful people in this community but I see so much disrespect on the forums that I can easily see why a new player would be turned off. I think we really ought to work at making this forum a more inviting place where people can come for help and ask questions or state their opinions without being treated so disrespectfully.

Oh, and sorry, that wasn't entirely on topic, but it seemed like a good time to mention it.

Love,
Aero

Keep it going. You know by the time this thread reaches 100 pages, LFS is still going to be a SIMULATION game only.

*yawn*