I'm having a difficult time with the clutch in the UFR at South City. I suspect this is because the bumpiness of the track causes the wheels to suddenly become unloaded which which puts stress on the drivetrain.

Here's a thread I made for all you people that can't make it three laps without smoking the clutch. It's very informative and will help you in REAL LIFE as well as Live For Speed! Driving a manual is not a black art closely guarded under secrecy!

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=35855

Makes you remember all the shit that was caused when damage took effect in S2 (I still remember moving from S1), All the noobs were getting shitty cause they couldnt run into you and push you off the track without getting damage themselves.

I use the logitech momo and have always used the left paddle as the clutch, I dont have a prob with the new patch and i have even 'HAD' to make the clutch heat up on purpose, Its really easy to drive so live with it or use the old patch, I still have a version of patch Q on my system so i can use the tweak to play around with power and so on and it has nothing over the new patch, Also still have S1 on my system...

I've got to agree with the other real life racers (as i am) on here. The rate that the clutch destroys itself is fair enough in the open wheel race cars in LFS. I've never driven a real F1 car but I have seen them destroy a clutch leaving the pits. But not applied realistically to the other heavy cars and clubmans.

Simply doing a burnout to spin the car around on a tight track instead of doing a 10 point turn after an accident shouldn't kill your clutch in the "club cars" (sedans and clubmans). If that were the case, people competing in Hill Climbs in real life wouldn't make it to the top (you officially perform a burnout to heat the driving tyres before you start). People competing in Autocross/Motorkhana or similar events would need a new clutch every run.

In normal lapping, sure I barely get the clutch warm. But one donut and its hosed? is not realistic (except in the open cars perhaps).

This comment is after a mere 10 minutes of testing the Y patch so not a lot of practice with it and my current controller configuration may not be helping. Just another case of a nice idea which hasn't been applied all that well. Oh and I'm sure it wasn't easy to code, but I hope it gets improved upon soon.

I use a gamepad with Automatic Clutch and Sequential Gears. So far the only time I have destroyed a clutch is when I was doing it on purpose to see what happened. I have no problem lifting to change gear, I can do it very quickly when I am paying attention. I like it because it adds something to the game, now I can see myself pull away from someone slightly if I do a good shift, likewise if they miss a shift.

I think maybe a few people just don't yet realize that they have to stop the gas for a split second while you shift up. I didn't realize until some dude from another thread mentioned it. I just figured it was the same as before. Real easy to get the hang of. The cars feel nicer to drive for some reason as well.

Quote from JessesAE86 :

On the race cars, they should have race clutches, which are meant for taking long periods of abuse. They should not be wearing out after 10 laps REGARDLESS of how you are driving. Especially the Forumla cars. THEY HAVE PADDLE SHIFTERS there is no clutch they are pushing in and out... Paddle shifters is how they shift their cars in real life, so their clutches in LFS should NOT be wearing out and you should not be able to even push the clutch in because its not there in real life to push in. They don't lift to shift either. and they do 100's of laps without a clutch replacement.

How wrong you could be. Race clutches are not designed to take abuse, quite the opposite they're designed to be very compact and efficient offering maximum locking power without worrying about long term wear and having to cope with abuse. Clutch problems do happen IRL, in F4 just about everybody has had a clutch problem at sometime, never normally conventional wear, either overheating through abuse on the track or not unheard of at all the clutch can crack when it's cooling down from hard use.

...and please stop this flat shifting crap, you simply can't do it IRL. In order to make any gearbox shift gear you have to take the load of it either by closing the throttle, cutting the ignition or disengaging drive. If you choose the last option you will kill your clutch within a lap.

Quote from DJglass :

Simply doing a burnout to spin the car around on a tight track instead of doing a 10 point turn after an accident shouldn't kill your clutch in the "club cars" (sedans and clubmans). If that were the case, people competing in Hill Climbs in real life wouldn't make it to the top (you officially perform a burnout to heat the driving tyres before you start). People competing in Autocross/Motorkhana or similar events would need a new clutch every run.

You'll just have to get used to doing what you'd do IRL to spin the car/do a burnout, in otherwords a proper clutch dump instead of whatever you're doing I just went and tried it and in the FZ50 doing multiple burnouts and donuts couldn't get any heat in my clutch, what drifters are moaning about is beyond me. My guess is a lot of them can't drive, real drifters still have to lift on upshifts and heel and toe on downshifts just like 'grippers' the act of going sideways or spinning the rear wheels doesn't require any clutch slip.

I too am disappointed by the ease in burning up the clutch with a simple spin-correcting burnout/donut.

I would like to see the realism such that 'RL' cars with h-shifters are designed to be driven the way they would with clutching recommended on up and downshifts (maybe you can get away with lift-off upshifts), and the GTR class based around sequential/flappy paddle shifting where flat shift upshifts are entirely possible and clutching is recommended on downshifts as seen in FIA GT / LMES / Aussie touring classes.

Quote from Stang70Fastback :

My Subaru's got 205,000 miles, has been pushed hard (though well taken care of) and only NOW is starting to show signs of needing a new center clutch pack (and that's not even the "drive clutch," just the one that transfers power front-rear based on grip.) Main clutch still going strong!

You kinda answered your own question there. You drive a Subaru

The only reason i say 80,000 miles is, someone very politely pointed out that i didn't know squat about cars and mechanics and things so gave me a link to a 'How Stuff Works' page. And it said that's the life expectancy of a modern clutch, and a load of other stuff that i didn't really understand about how it worked

Ignorance is bliss yunno

Quote from Gunn :

Nobody wants to admit to being an idiot.

Well, I definitely would, but there seems to be no such option.

Quote from DJglass :

Simply doing a burnout to spin the car around on a tight track instead of doing a 10 point turn after an accident shouldn't kill your clutch in the "club cars" (sedans and clubmans). If that were the case, people competing in Hill Climbs in real life wouldn't make it to the top (you officially perform a burnout to heat the driving tyres before you start). People competing in Autocross/Motorkhana or similar events would need a new clutch every run.

If you just 'drop the clutch' you shouldn't have any trouble doing burnouts. I do it all the time in South City... it's the only way to point the right way if you spin out WITHOUT burning up the clutch, lol.

Mazz4200 - Subaru pwns...save for that god damned head gasket. Only major issue ever with the car.

Quote from Woz :

I can't believe, even while learning to drive stick, that you have never experienced the smell of a burnt clutch. Its not hard to miss.

Personally, no - I was very careful when I first started to drive and took it easy until I had it sussed. After passing my testI had a series of small underpowered cars that you really had to work hard to get the best of, and that involved heel and toeing and carefully matching revs on downshifts to maintain momentum around the corners on our country B roads. I even managed to drive my VW Golf MK2 home (just under 15 miles including suburban roads) with a snapped clutch cable by getting the revs just right and shifting then, so I am capable of not killing cars through indiscriminate shifting. I do recognise the smell of burnt clutch though, and never want to smell it in any of my cars!

Quote :

As a special offer I am willing to come around and show you that I can burn out the clutch in your road car in a few seconds if you want

Heh, I have no doubt that you could, but then it's easy to break anything in a car if you make a concerted effort to do just that. I find it hard to believe that you could toast a factory clutch in a standard car after a couple of laps of a circuit though, especially if you were driving as people tend to in LFS by hitting the rev limiter and then upshifting so there's actually limited slip when the plates engage. Heavy downshifts wouldn't help if people can't work out how to cadence brake, but that's hard to get right without real-world feedback anyway.

Quote from jaustin :

I would like to see the realism such that 'RL' cars with h-shifters are designed to be driven the way they would with clutching recommended on up and downshifts (maybe you can get away with lift-off upshifts), and the GTR class based around sequential/flappy paddle shifting where flat shift upshifts are entirely possible and clutching is recommended on downshifts as seen in FIA GT / LMES / Aussie touring classes.

Quite a few misunderstandings there.

Firstly V8 Supercars do not have sequential gearboxes, they have H-gates with an automatic ignition cut on upshifts, this allows them to change gear without lifting their foot off the throttle pedal but it is exactly the same as if they did lift their foot. Most V8 supercars drivers use the clutch on both up and down shifts, right foot brake and heel and toe. A few choose to left foot brake and do not touch the clutch pedal, with the ignition cut they have no problem changing up without lifting their foot on downshifts they have blip the throttle whilst in neutral to rev match in order for the car to accept the next gear.

In all conventional gearboxes used in road and racing cars it is impossible to change gear without removing the force of the engine which in turn reduces the meshing force on the gears in the gearbox this can be achieved several ways, the most common in syncro road 'boxes is to declutch, you can then do whatever you like with the clutch pedal but if you release it with a large speed differential across it (ie. with the throttle open) you will burn it out very quickly especially with a racing clutch. Alternatively you can shift fully clutched, this can be done in any gearbox but in a syncro gearbox not designed to be declutched there is an increased risk of damage and rev-matching needs to be more precise.

In the various modern racing transmission variants (completely ignore F1 cars because they use a completely unique system with an automated clutch) clutched shifting is possible and usually recommended. It is still not possible though to shift without removing the load of the engine and in a clutched shift the engine must be reduced either through manual or automated closing of the throttle bodies or through an ignition cut, be that through an automated system or the rev limiter it doesn't matter. Some racing cars with a sequential downshift can cope without rev-matching to downshift, like all the cars in LFS and a few need a helping hand. Sometimes RL drivers may choose or be told to use the clutch on the downshifts to avoid this problem and the wear on the transmission if they are unable can't blip the throttle. In LFS it is never necessary or the fastest technique to touch the clutch in any sequentially shifted car, so don't. If you can't make it change gear without the clutch you are doing something wrong, simply using it will just result in burning it out.

Quote from Woz :

I get the feeling that you have never abused a clutch like you have in LFS either. I can't believe, even while learning to drive stick, that you have never experienced the smell of a burnt clutch. Its not hard to miss.

What on earth are you up to? I think I can safely say I've only smelt burning clutch at race tracks and more commonly trials and autotests

the clutch is a bit quick to fry up
the formula BMW wow
it took me 10 laps to get it right
of course now i have to re learn to drive in the sim
funny thing is my PB are still in the system- no way can i do those times lifting to shift so often

Quote from Kuang :

I do recognise the smell of burnt clutch though, and never want to smell it in any of my cars!

Yep, its a smell like no other

Quote from Kuang :

I find it hard to believe that you could toast a factory clutch in a standard car after a couple of laps of a circuit though, especially if you were driving as people tend to in LFS by hitting the rev limiter and then upshifting so there's actually limited slip when the plates engage. Heavy downshifts wouldn't help if people can't work out how to cadence brake, but that's hard to get right without real-world feedback anyway.

I am sure I could IF I used the clutch in the same way that people are using it in LFS I could kill it quickly. Its not the gear changes, revs or anything else its all down to if the clutch is slipping.

I have always driven in LFS as I drive IRL and worried about mechanical sympathy. I can run 50 laps on R2s in a GTR and keep them green etc. I can run lap after lap at my race pace and not put any heat into the clutch.

In the end it all comes down to those that slip the clutch under heavy load will heat and kill the clutch.

I use a manual clutch in LFS (G25) that has been DXTweaked to operate like a real clutch. The default LFS clutch operates over 100% of the travel by default so will slip when people do not expect it to. This is the cause of some issues I am sure.

I get the feeling those with issues using auto clutch are causing the problems with lack of blips, wrong gears at the wrong time etc. If you are in the wrong gear the auto clutch will slip to stop a stall so you cause heat build up.

People have used this without thought because it has never caused issues in the past. They have alway pushed LFS with the main focus on hotlap times and not about if they could do the same in a real car. Its just now all the bad habbits people have learnt by pushing LFS cars in unrealistic ways to gain speed are now starting to bite, nothing else.

Quote from ajp71 :

What on earth are you up to? I think I can safely say I've only smelt burning clutch at race tracks and more commonly trials and autotests

That was more about I bet everyone at some part in there driving history has smelt clutch burn. When you learn you slip the clutch far too much so its impossible not to smell

I have not burnt a clutch since then, that smell make you learn quick lol

I think you've hit the nail on the head there - if you're running a proper 3 pedal setup then you have no excuse whatsoever for burning the clutch (despite the relative lack of feedback you have to indicate a clean match that you'd get in a real car). The problem for those of us who don't have G25s or similar is that ever single gearchange effectively involves dumping the clutch - you just can't get the sublety you need with a clutch button, so you'll always be running at a higher risk of damage than someone with a clutch pedal who might be able to use a bit of slip to even out slight mismatches in revs. I did actually stall the LX4 using autoclutch this morning after spinning out and rushing to get back on the track, so it doesn't always slip.

IRL my driving intructor would have skinned me alive if I'd have melted his clutch, so I learned very quickly not to He was teaching me advanced driving techniques on the runup to my test and encouraging me to go for the fastest changes the gearbox could manage whilst still remaining smooth so I had a good grounding in keeping the clutch in one piece My old MK2 Golf still was on its original clutch at 118,000 miles when it first started to slip, so I clearly didn't treat it too badly

Quote from Gunn :

Nobody wants to admit to being an idiot.

You've always set a fine example.

Quote from Kuang :

I think you've hit the nail on the head there - if you're running a proper 3 pedal setup then you have no excuse whatsoever for burning the clutch (despite the relative lack of feedback you have to indicate a clean match that you'd get in a real car). The problem for those of us who don't have G25s or similar is that ever single gearchange effectively involves dumping the clutch - you just can't get the sublety you need with a clutch button, so you'll always be running at a higher risk of damage than someone with a clutch pedal who might be able to use a bit of slip to even out slight mismatches in revs. I did actually stall the LX4 using autoclutch this morning after spinning out and rushing to get back on the track, so it doesn't always slip.

IRL my driving intructor would have skinned me alive if I'd have melted his clutch, so I learned very quickly not to He was teaching me advanced driving techniques on the runup to my test and encouraging me to go for the fastest changes the gearbox could manage whilst still remaining smooth so I had a good grounding in keeping the clutch in one piece My old MK2 Golf still was on its original clutch at 118,000 miles when it first started to slip, so I clearly didn't treat it too badly

Out of interest post a replay where the clutch heats up but you feel you have not done something wrong. The interest will be when you get on the gas and if the clutch is fully out or not, when and how you blip, how you handle down shifts etc.

There's not really any chance of the clutch not being fully out as I use a button in lieu of a third pedal - I did use autoclutch but you can't blockshift - so it's either 100% on or off.. that's what I meant by every shift involving dumping the clutch. Actually, that's not strictly true, now I think about it - there is a tiny release interval when you let the button go, but I have no idea if it's adjustable. Adjusting to that gap rather than having full control myself is what's causing a bit of friction. I really do need a decent wheel and pedals, but funds don't permit it :|

Don't get me wrong - I don't generally melt the clutch under normal driving (although I did the other day whilst tweaking a drift setup for the new patch) but I do think that when I get it slightly wrong it goes far more wrong and faster than I'd expect, IYSWIM?

Is any one here can tell to me why in FZR clutch overheats, and in FXR - is not!
I use same manual gear switching, but with auto-clutch.

(I should lift a leg from gear, for not overheating in FZR, but not in FXR)!

It is bug ? If not - GTR class still not ballanced!

Quote from EkZeKuteR :

Is any one here can tell to me why in FZR clutch overheats, and in FXR - is not!
I use same manual gear switching, but with auto-clutch.

(I should lift a leg from gear, for not overheating in FZR, but not in FXR)!

It is bug ? If not - GTR class still not ballanced!

From garage window you can see if car has sequential box or not, ZFR has h-patter box and thus is required that you lift throttle when shifting gears.

Quote from JTbo :

From garage window you can see if car has sequential box or not, ZFR has h-patter box and thus is required that you lift throttle when shifting gears.

I see. Thanks JTbo.
But then FZR now more harder to drive then FXR.
And because of FZR slower now.
Whether not so?

Quote from EkZeKuteR :

I see. Thanks JTbo.
But then FZR now more harder to drive then FXR.
And because of FZR slower now.
Whether not so?

They should be rather equal, H-box was given to slow FZR down a bit, it does not affect too much for fast drivers, I believe, but perhaps it makes driving bit more interesting between different GTR cars.

I don't race with those much at all so I can't really tell, only that is what I have read from here earlier.

I don't know about everyone that said xfg won't heat up so it fails, only 4 laps and it does on me. I have it on auto clutch, no clutch pedal here.

And when I realized I have to let up it still got hot one race and failed, and I thought I was matching speed pretty well.

With auto clutch it's hard to know when to gas it since I'm not doing the releasing and it's hard to time for me, at least so far.