I'm not aware of clutch overheating ever being an issue in a real world racing situation. In any car setup for racing, the drive train would break long before the clutch ever gives out because of no lift shifts.

Unless the clutch gets hot enough to warp the surfaces, there simply isn't going to be heat generated during shifts to cause loss of clutch friction, unless the clutch is poorly designed for racing, but then such a clutch wouldn't be used for racing. Clutches are similar to brakes, but have a much larger area to work with, and spend much less time slipping than even the worst shifting possbible than the brakes, so the idea that clutch overheating would affect a car in a racing situation doesn't seem realistic. I've talked to a few casual and serious racers and they've never experienced clutch slippage due to bad shifting (just tranny or rear end breakage, and most of this occurs at drag strips).

Other than drag racing, the only time I've smelt burnt clutch is when someone was trying to back up a very long and narrow, steeply inclined, driveway (under construction, or else the guy would have been able to turn around) with the clutch slipping the entire time. In spite of the smoke and the obviously cooked clutch, there was no apparent loss of clutch grip after that (car was old 1980's Mustang GT).

In my opinion, this is one "feature" that LFS never needed, especially when there are other disconnects from reality that need more attention. For example, real race cars with sequential shifters can complete shifts between 50ms (1/20th of a second) to 30ms (1/33rd of a second), depending on rpm drop, yet LFS has yet to implement such fast shifting on the F1 or other no-lift sequential shift race cars in it.

I think it is safe to say that for now it is a deterrent for those who shift improperly. Until the devs model tranny and driveshaft damage the clutch is the easiest to punish bad driving. The only time I've ever driven a car with a slipping bad clutch was a early 90's corrola and the clutch was the original and I was driving it pretty hard. Granted, I've smelt burning clutch when learning long ago, but it didn't effect anything but my passenger's noses.

Quote from Infiniti :

I think it is safe to say that for now it is a deterrent for those who shift improperly.

So this deterrent was added to LFS, even though it's not realistic? What happened to the goal of realism in LFS?

You probably should have posted this in one of the many threads on this subject already started in the last week

As I've said in another thread, I don't think you will find that the clutch as it is currently is supposed to represent a real clutch in every circumstance. It just needs to approximate a working clutch in race conditions.

For me at least I think it is pretty good in race conditions as I virtually have zero problems with it on a momo or G25 wheel If you are then I suggest it is because of bad habits formed in the game prior to patch Y. Just as it is easy to overdrive cars in LFS (in respect to grip limit) without realising it because of lack of G forces it is also very easy to use more revs and mismatch the clutch to revs due to lack of feedback you would get in real life.

And in rl you dont have a nice little gauge to tell you how hot your clutch is, your only feedback is a not very pleseant smell if you have cooked it which is probably equivelant to well into the red in LFS.

I do agree that the clutch looses some of its effectiveness a bit too quick though, at least in the low powered road cars, but its acceptable in its current form as I'm sure it will be refined as LFS progresses

Yea I agree, I never have problems and when I spin I automatically clutch in. I've never spun a car and tried to feather a clutch while in 4th or so gear in real life so I couldn't tell you how close to real it is.

Quote from JeffR :

So this deterrent was added to LFS, even though it's not realistic? What happened to the goal of realism in LFS?

The idea is to punish those who were abusing an even more unrealistic feature of LFS.

The clutch damage isn't perfect but it shouldn't be a problem if you know how to drive. I don't have problems despite not having a clutch pedal (autoclutch is used for downshifts).

I don't know how realistic it is..but it sure can be annoying!



And for no apparent reason, happy boxing day

Quote :

You probably should have posted this in one of the many threads on this subject already started in the last week.

But my point is different. It's not about the pro's or con's of clutch heating, but instead about the realism, or lack thereof, of having clutch heating in the game.

I don't recall any players complaing about speed shifting for lap records in previous version of LFS. Note that most of the lap records in Grand Prix Legends were also done with speed shifting and damage off. Since it's a level playing field for all players, why bother adding an uneeded (and apparently unwanted by some) deterrent, if the solution isn't realistic?

I'd rather see the developers spend more time on the basic physics of the game (tire physics, chassis dynamics) than deterrents like clutch overheating or even hot spotting. Features like these could have waited until S3.

it is on the route of being realistic (without statistic we can't say whether it is now realistic or not), as is all things in LFS.

Things like these are in LFS because they make driving in the game more life like. They add depth to the experience and make people realize it ain't just a racing game with a less forgiving driving model, but instead a wholesome experience in recreating the operation of a car in racing conditions, as in real life.

I don't think there's a perfect tyre model, everything can in some stage be improved, so waiting these to be sorted out before implementing other things could take a long long time.

As a racing clutch, it is pretty realistic - though as a racing clutch it should be very keen with drive being taken up within the last few mm of pedal travel.
- this is so that a fast change can be done by just "blipping" the clutch pedal.

A racing clutch will also burn out very quickly and you only really use it to get off the line and at pitstops. - They definitley will not take the abuse of constant use like a normal family car.

I have seen quite a few clutches burn out in F1

Quote from Polyracer :

I have seen quite a few clutches burn out in F1

Sounds like a design problem, since F1, Japan's GT series, some European GT series, USA's Champ formula seires, all use computer controlled, no lift, sequential shifting. A typical F1 racing engine has a 4 pound flywheel to allow the fast rpm changes utilized by their extremely fast shifters. Companies like XTRAC make no-lift sequential shifters for a variety of race prepped cars.

Video of Michael Schumacher driving a Ferrari Formula 1 at Monza - 2003, shifts are almost instant:

mnzaf1.wmv

Video of Keiichi Tsuchiya driving a NSX GT at Tsukuba, with a no lift sequential shifter, similar to the XTRAC type:

tsunsxgt.wmv

If the F1 and GT cars can stand 1 to 2 hours of this type of shifting, I can't imagine that lower powered cars are going to have clutch overheating issues.

Also, I'd like to see these kind of shift speeds implemented in the LFS counterparts to these cars. That would be a welcom bit of realism to LFS in my opinion.

As has been said before, clutch is rather too strong than too weak. Look RPM you are using when slipping your clutch, look then rpm IRL you use when slipping clutch, those need to match for example before you can say it burns too easy.

Check your gear ratios, if you can drive 70-80kph at first gear auto clutch will keep clutch slipping really long and specially when spinning out auto clutch engages very easily causing clutch to burn as one keeps throttle floored stubbornly.

Put clutch to button and try then, should make some difference.

Race clutch just grab, those don't slip if enough strong is installed, you can make it slip very little but often it results burned clutch if one tries such thing. Also when doing flatshifting race clutch certainly slip a bit as clutch pedal movement is bit slow (talkin IRL) so it causes lot of wear and pretty mcuh of heat too.

Road cars are again different story, slippage after slippage, don't know about those American V8 cars, those might spin tires more easily than slip clutch, but many european cars tend to slip unless you don't lift when shifting.

I think only those are complaining about clutch that are used to flatshifting and are feeling they are now slower than others, be assured, everyone else are going to be as much slower too and everyone else needs to lift throttle when shifting too

Quote from JTbo :

everyone else are going to be as much slower too and everyone else needs to lift throttle when shifting too

Except some, like me, have programmable controller software that allows me to program the perfect shift sequence (throttle, clutch, and shift control) with just the touch of a button, which would be an unfair advantage now that clutch overheating has been added and auto-blip / auto-cut have been removed.

Note, I don't race LFS online anymore, just an occasional offline session each time there's a new release. Because of my controller setup, the clutch heating, and auto throttle stuff aren't an issue for me, but it is an apparent issue for others. The clutch heating isn't realistic. I'm not sure there's a good answer for auto-blip / auto-cut on shifts, other than to note that not all players have the same budget or equipment for the game, nor can afford to abuse their controllers.

slipper clutches

Another point I missed previously is the usage of slipper clutches. These are clutches that deliberately slip during downshifts to limit engine braking, to prevent loss of control in a car and/or over revving of engines. Grand Prix Legends simulates these, but with no adjustment (it's why you can see rpm changes from throttle inputs with the clutch fully engaged). High end street motorcycles, like the new Hayabusa, and almost all racing motorcycles, have slipper clutches as well. Obviously a lot of clutch slippage with these, and yet they aren't overheating. For race cars, this is mostly limited to the smaller race cars powered by motorcycle engines. I don't know if any other modern race cars series use slipper (aka back torque limiting) clutches.

I don't know about that abusing, isn't controllers meant to be used, you press and lift throttle etc?

I don't also have problem with programmable things, I'm not going to loose places at racer for that anyway, I loose it because I manage to brake only half force causing my car to get bit shorter again

Clutch heating has made racing closer to reality, even it is not perfect, so it is not bad thing at all. Clutch and engine models are being worked on further (Man himself mentioned this) so I don't see reason why to constantly we need to discuss about it over and over again

Why don't we concentrate on engine damage for example

I though that in GPL it was caused by those tires, I'm pretty sure I even read that from somewhere

Made a note of this thread, so that I can pick it apart and correct all of JeffR's mistakes. Of out to some friends for a couple of days.

Quote from JTbo :

Clutch heating has made racing closer to reality, even it is not perfect,

well i dont think it did? what we have in lfs is that when a clutch heats up it starts to slip, then it will heat up more the more it slips. sorry thats slimply not how it works in "reality" as an example i will use my fireblade (although the same applys to other bikes ive own and even my old impreza) when the clutch was worn (too many wheelies) it would slip under heavy load say accelerating in 5th gear from 6000rpm it would then slip up to 10000rpm but as it slipped it heated up and gripped more and then stopped slipping until it was left to cool down again, a slipping clutch is caused by wear not heat and esp not the heat caused by 3/4 agressive launches, 2nd remember these are race cars with race clutches and can take abuse

Quote from andybarsblade :

well i dont think it did? what we have in lfs is that when a clutch heats up it starts to slip, then it will heat up more the more it slips. sorry thats slimply not how it works in "reality"

Sorry but thats is exactly how it works - its exactly the same with brake fade,
The only difference here is that brake fade can be scary, the harder you press the pedal - the worse it gets.

Ok lets do some research

Quote :

Clutch problems can occur at almost any mileage and for a wide variety of reasons. When the clutch pedal is released and the clutch disc starts to rub against the flywheel and pressure plate, it generates friction and heat. This helps absorb the shock loading that would otherwise jolt the drivetrain every time the transmission was put into gear or shifted. A little slippage under these conditions is a good thing because it helps dampen loads that might otherwise damage gears, U-joints and CV joints.

Quote :

The worst thing any driver can do is ride the clutch. Slipping the clutch excessively when starting out or when creeping along in traffic sends the temperature of the clutch soaring. If the facings get too hot, they may start to burn giving off an odor similar to burnt toast. If the clutch isn't given a chance to cool, the disc may be ruined along with the flywheel and/or pressure plate.

Source: http://www.aa1car.com/library/2004/bf40459.htm

Quote :

Excessive heat can cause the diaphragm to loose its gripping power - possibly due to a driver "riding the clutch" to excess

Source: http://www.indiacar.com/infobank/clutch.htm

Imo it's very realistic for the road going cars (i.e. mimimal race preped) to experience clutch slip and the effects of heat induced slip with overly aggressive driving or deliberate riding of the clutch. The fully race preped cars on the other hand should have much sturdier cluthces install and therefore exhibit a lot less tendency to overheat the clutch, but also should be alot harsher and less forgiving to drive.

The clutch in Y behaves very similar to the clutch on my car (*), If I abuse it it starts to slip, there are some differences though. The lfs clutch is like a cutoff based on clutch heat, where my clutch transfers alot less torque when it starts to slip. The clutch on the formula I drove was very digital and I stalled a few embarressing times until I stopped trying to slip it and instead modulated it on/off a few times to get the car to speed while keeping the engine running.

The current clutch is not perfect, but Its alot better than before and that is what matters (and the way LFS has progressed since the first version ever). I think its good enough for Scavens effort be focussed on other parts for many patches to come.

*The clutch was worn out on the car when I bought it and I though I would have to change it, but it has not gone worse over time and it only starts to act up if I do a lot of tyres queeling standing starts or when I try the brilliant idea of removing rust on the rear break rotors by breaking hard for a few kilometers (the idea was that the front would fade and the rear rust would diapear, all I got was alot of smell and a car not responding very well to rpm changes)

Racing is better as more racers are being careful about car and not using it like it would be made of diamond that can't get destroyed, or something like that

Quote from JeffR :

slipper clutches

Another point I missed previously is the usage of slipper clutches. These are clutches that deliberately slip during downshifts to limit engine braking, to prevent loss of control in a car and/or over revving of engines. Grand Prix Legends simulates these, but with no adjustment (it's why you can see rpm changes from throttle inputs with the clutch fully engaged). High end street motorcycles, like the new Hayabusa, and almost all racing motorcycles, have slipper clutches as well. Obviously a lot of clutch slippage with these, and yet they aren't overheating. For race cars, this is mostly limited to the smaller race cars powered by motorcycle engines. I don't know if any other modern race cars series use slipper (aka back torque limiting) clutches.

Do you even know how a slipper clutch works?

Quote from Polyracer :

Sorry but thats is exactly how it works - its exactly the same with brake fade,
The only difference here is that brake fade can be scary, the harder you press the pedal - the worse it gets.

LFS with brake fade... Now that would be cruel and realistic punishment.

Quote from Mattesa :

LFS with brake fade... Now that would be cruel and realistic punishment.

Yes irl that is always in back of drivers mind if you watch footwork of any of the V8Supercar drivers they always check for brake pressure before each braking zone every corner!

The clutch, like much in LFS is NOT perfect but on the whole its not bad and is much improved from what we had before. As others have said it is probably too strong now.

Here is the bottom line about the clutch....

When you slip the clutch it will heat up. Energy does not dissapear and so all the energy not transferred due to clutch slip becomes heat. Slip it too much over too long a period and it will cause you problems.

Lets get this straight shall we. If you overheat the clutch it is YOUR FAULT. Do not slip the clutch so much. Change your driving technique/style to be more realistic and you will not overheat the clutch.

A race is about speed but it iks also about getting the car over the finish line. Think about mechanical sympathy more, all race drivers have to IRL.

Leave the clutch alone and focus on the auto clutch. I have a feeling that if there is an issue it will be here. I use manual so have never melted a clutch in LFS yet. Can't understand the problem myself.

The clutch in LFS works good under race conditions, but as soon you do some heavy testing its broken. I tried to spin the wheels in the UF1 a little bit, and imo the clutch heated waaay to fast.

In the new car to, can't even do some donuts.