Only difference from that is that I have way sticker tires on (not snow tires), and the clutch is rode out a bit longer... I have yet to smell the clutch burning or glaze it... I tried the same thing in a few of the cars in lfs and the clutch just got red right away. So the heat I would say is pretty close, but still needs a bit of improvement.
Are you using similar gear ratios in both RL and LFS? Are the HP of the RL car and LFS car similar? Are the torque curves similar? What about weight and distribution? What about the grip of the tyres?
If even one is a "no" your argument doesn't hold water.
Sure it does. The tires I run are practically road legal slicks... Far more grippy than any road tire in lfs.
A clutch should be able to take a decent amount of abuse. For say, the stock clutch in my car is rated to handle an engine producing 300ft/lbs of torque.. About double what the engine currently produces. Like the RB4 for example. Should have a very strong clutch, since it is an awd car. I owned a 2005 Subaru Impreza 2.5RS for ~ 6months. The clutch in that car was like something you would find in a a truck. I did have fun in it though, some high rpm launches and what not and the clutch never glazed.
It holds water if there are cars in LFS with more power, more traction than his car. I analyzed his video. The tires start making noise at about 3500 rpm, 5.75 seconds into the video. He shifts out of 2nd gear at 15.5 seconds into the video for a 0 to 60mph run in 9.75 seconds, and there are quite a few cars in LFS that can do better than this.
However, to be fair, referring back to the Z06, the friction material in the Z06's clutch is stickier than typical cars, but it's not a drag racing clutch, and if a driver deliberately slips the clutch excessively during launches, the clutch can be overheated. Note that the Z06 can reach 61mph in 1st gear, which translates into a potential slipping the clutch for over 3 seconds on a bad launch. Releasing the clutch very quickly and letting the tires spin for a bit is the preferred method. In the first drag video, Ranger stated that he "launched at 3600rpm", and "came out of the clutch fast" when launching with the drag radials, which only slip for a short time.
Well the clutch isn't fully released till about 4500rpms.. 0-55 is actually 60mph because the snow tires are an inch larger than stock which makes the speedometer read slower. 0-60 on my summer tires is 6 seconds flat according to a datalog. But this isn't about how slow my car is.
There are numerous amounts of clutch materials... Im sure all the road cars in lfs would have an organic clutch.
Love the way you didn't want to touch this at all.
You have to accept that the car in LFS are as they are. Have you ever thought that the differences between them are there on purpose to make sure all cars feel different when you drive them in this car simulation.
I would like to use my H shift on all cars but accept that I have to use flappy paddles on some cars. Just the way it is because that is the way the car is. Makes each GTR car feel different.
Please STOP with the DRAG CAR stuff. Yes you CAN get stuff to allow you to flat shift but GUESS WHAT... The cars in LFS that do not allow it JUST DON'T HAVE the setup to allow it. Just the way it is.
This thread reminds me of when keyboard steer was changed
I'm not sure what you're getting at here. I made a replay of a "no macro" run in the LX6 at Blackwood, with the default race setup, only reducing fuel, steering lock, and maximum braking force, with auto clutch on. I'm flat shifting at 9000rpm, and there was only a small sliver of orange on the clutch temperature bar that stayed about the same over 3 laps. Flat shifting at redline may not work with all cars in LFS, but it appears not to be an issue with the LX6, where the rpms only decrease during shifts because the engine is already at redline.
Since I use joysticks, without any force feedback, I use a bit of induced understeer to control the LX6 when it drifts. At my skill level, and how well I know the track and car, a sub 1:25 lap time is about as good as it gets for me. I'd put more time into LFS, but I don't want to mess up my NFS driving techniques.
Regarding the macro capability, it's pretty advanced, since all of the outputs can be mapped through a scriptable "virtual" device, axis, buttons, keystrokes, and mouse clicks. A single press of a button could be used to lift throttle, press clutch, shift gear, release clutch, add throttle, restore throttle to controller position. If anyone is actually interested, you can read the manual here (it's a help file), in the CMS Scripting section:
If your speed in the next gear at shifting is near the rev limiter you need to reconsider your gearing, it should be 2000-3000rpm less. As I explained that is the part that does the damage.
I tired flat shifting on the drag strip with the LX6, FZ50, FZR and FXO. They were all barely hot by the end of it, so I think nothing unrealistic there and the drag argument has no relevance at all, because apart from the fact these aren't drag cars they have no issue doing it on a drag strip
That's not what I meant, I was refering to the current gear while the engine is close to redline before the shift, not the gear after. If you look at the replay, I'm flat shifting at 9000 rpm with the default race setup (gearing) for Blackwood, and it's not overheating the clutch, in spite of the fast rpm drops. Maybe in a future version of LFS, this will cause drivetrain damage, but with patch Y, flat shifting in the LX6 isn't an issue. Otherwise, I haven't done a lot of experimenting to see how easy it is to overheat the clutch with a variety of cars in LFS, but based on the other thread, it's affecting some players.
I don't see your point, so long as you do it quickly you should be able to fully clutch with full load from any engine speed with minimal issue. It is the shock of clutching with the rpm difference that causes the issues.
A racing clutch has a very short pedal throw before the clutch is fully disengaged, - the clutch is fully disengaged when your foot has hardly moved.
This enables very quick changes in racing - but makes it a harder to modulate a fast start off the line, the average Joe would almost certainly stall the motor a few times before getting away.
The G25 has too long a throw to be a racing clutch without changing the sensitivity of the clutch - which is not (yet) an option in LFS.
Generally speaking a racing clutch is larger and has a bigger friction surface than a normal clutch friction plate, it will also have a stronger clamping mechanism.
But also there are usually shock absorbing springs within the friction disc that absorb shock loadings to a degree - this helps to protect the friction plate from shearing and helps the gearbox too.
My impression is that the clutch does heat up a little too quickly and become too compromising compared to my experience in RL, but having said that, the actual sound and feel of a overheated or worn clutch is very realistic.
If you drive properly or as you are intended to, you have no problems.
I like it because it adds another realistic element to the game.
Maybe I don't understand how auto-clutch works, especially now that auto-cut and auto-blip are gone. In the replay I posted a link to, I have the throttle pegged on every upshift, and there's an abrupt drop in rpm with each upshift. On the downshifts, I wait for the car to slow and engine rpms to drop before downshifting, but since I have a single axis for throttle and brake, I'm never blipping on the downshifts either.
Players with single axis for throttle and brake have a valid complaint about the removal of auto-blip, especially if drivetrain damage is added in later patch, but that belongs in another thread. This one is about the realism of clutch overheating in LFS as reported by some player in the other thread. I haven't done enough testing to see what the issue is. In my one test where I flat shifted with the LX6 it wasn't an issue.
This is due to a combination of a light flywheel and a grabby clutch, which is why you see deliberate tire spin on a lot of race cars when exiting the pits.
Based on the video below about clutches, their peformance clutches have a smaller friction surface, and use a higher coefficient of friction material, and the "full race" clutch didn't have any shock absorbing springs.
Despite the video, I've also read that Formula 1 race cars, use a second friction plate, which effectively increaes surface area, and that they have some type of shock absorbtion, although computer controlled deliberate slippage of the clutch during shifts also helps.
Sorry but do you understand how a manual works? Have you ever driven one?
To put it in simple terms a conventional clutched racing upshift:
1. Driving along, lift or actually at this point just feather the throttle slightly, the idea is to remove the torque across the clutch and transmission, unlikely to cause acute issues if you don't though.
2. Clutch as quickly as possible.
3. Whilst changing gear lift off the throttle to adjust the engine revs to what it'll need for the next ratio, this is very important to get a smooth transition to the next gear and remove the shock to the clutch and transmission.
4. Declutch quickly.
Steps 1+2 can be combined, there's no real advantage to keeping the throttle down though and hitting the rev limiter doesn't do the engine any good. I challenge you to find me a video of a racing driver who misses out step 3.
Yes to both (motorcycles and cars since 1966, when I was 14, drove a gokart when I was 11), but what does this have to do with how LFS implements auto clutch without auto-cut or auto blip, and how this woud affect clutch overheating?
David Coulthard in a 2002 F1 McLaren race car, with a lot of "macros" in the fully automatic shifter. spaf1.wmv
OK, so I guess you meant cars without "no lift shifters"?
What does this have to do with how realistic clutch overheating in LFS is? I've already posted a replay where flat shifting at 9000 rpm wasn't an issue in Patch Y using the LX6: jrbllx6.spr, but apparently for some, it is an issue or that other thread complaining about it wouldn't exist. If it becomes an issue, my controller software is scriptable, and I've already created macros for auto-cut and auto-blip (but I didn't use it for that replay I made, the throttle is kept floored during the shifts).
Auto-cut and auto-blip effectively did exactly what you'd do with normal heel and toe driving, they only controlled the throttle input for you, that's it.
'No lift shifters' are peripheral engine management systems activated by gear shift movements. They are not physically different gearboxes. They can be fitted to any gearbox, usually sequential but occasionally H-gate (V8 Supercars). The only cars with such a system in LFS are the sequentially shifted cars (except for the FBM), ignore the BF1 because that uses a completely different system, the only type of 'no lift' system in LFS is a simple ignition cut which only acts on upshifts, it is in effect the same as the auto-cut option.
My question is how auto-clutch is implemented without auto-cut or auto-blip. I understand how it worked before, but without auto-cut or auto-blip, how long does an auto-clutch shift take?
or just switches such as paddle shifters, or semi-automatic shifters as used in some GT and formula race classes.
Dual clutch transmissions (DCT's) are significantly different.
Formula 1 and most race cars cut fuel, not spark. The fuel cut is accomplished by skipping the fuel injection sequence to cylinders. The pattern of skipping depends on how much power is to be cut. Pre 2005 F1 race cars and most fast sequential shifters shift in 50ms to 30ms depending on the rpm drop. With the new seamless shift technology used in Formula 1 staring in 2005, the shifts are faster still. The clutch is slipped and fuel is only cut to maintain a near constant torque output during the time that engine inertia generates the equivalent torque during the rpm drop. The goal of a seamless shifter is a near constant effective torque to the tranny during a shift, to eliminate torque "spikes", which reduces stress on the drive train. Duriin an upshift, the new gear is engaged before the old gear is disengaged. This is proprietary for Formula 1 cars, but zeroshift has announced theirs:
In the time you've spent crying about being unable to drive with joysticks (which is basically what you are admitting), you could have:
a) bought a new wheel for not much money and mastered it, thus never suffering from hot clutches unless you want to, or make lots of mistakes under pressure
b) learnt how to drive better with joysticks, so that it's less of an issue for you.
Quite why you won't accept that the clutch overheating isn't far from reality, or that real life techniques won't make it deviate from real life results. Do we need/want drivetrain damage? yes! Will it further reduce the flatshifting (etc) potential? Yes. Do you understand clutches? No!!!
What I was trying to tell you that that what you are doing is NOT flat shifting/power shifting or whatever else you want to call it.
As stated before the REAL LIFE technique used to "flat shift" when you don't have the electronics to help you is this...
1) Pull the stick out of gear without clutch. This is imposible for YOU with YOUR control setup.
2) Start to move the stick into gear until you feel resistance. This is imposible for YOU with YOUR control setup.
3) Dip the clutch until the stick pops into gear and then release. This is imposible for YOU with YOUR control setup.
As you can see we have now estanblished that with your control setup it is actually imposssible for you to EVER flatshift correctly. All you can hope to do is change gear and possibly attempt to trigger the clutch around the same time using a button clutch perhapse.
Is it ANY WONDER you damage your clutch in some cars? Flat shifting as we all know puts huge load on the car and that is when dont right. Imagine what your ham fisted technique will do to a car.
Thing is I have realised is that all the talk of no lift shifters and the like is just a smoke screen from you. You are like the old KB users that bitched and bitched when their wonderful easy control system was removed and they had to start to deal with the subtle things you have to do when you drive a car at the limits.
You have just proved yourself there is NOTHING wrong with the clutch as you have said you can "pretend flat shift" the LX6 and not heat its clutch. To that just proves in some cars the clutch is actually still too strong.
The blip and cut aids were removed because it allowed people to drive some cars in LFS in unrealistic ways. Good. It needed to be removed. The cars that do not have the electronics and system in place just will not allow you to keep planted all the time.
Either set up you wonderful macros or learn to drive in a more realistic way. I guess you macros don't work though otherwise you would have stopped bitching by now.
I'm STILL having issues trying to figure out why so many people have with the clutch, I'm at school now (uni), and all I have is an Xbox 360 controller to play with, and even with it I still can't burn the clutch out without doing it on purpose!
I have my clutch and wheel set at home with an H shifter and had no issues, but if I can't create any issues with a gamepad.. you guys must really be doing something wrong.
I never stated that LFS Patch Y was causing me any difficulties, because it isn't, mostly since I can use macros for auto-cut and auto-blip for racing games if needed.
I've only questioned if clutch heating as currently implemented in Patch Y was realistic, and a few here seem to think it's exaggerated.
I've never experience the clutch overheat issue during a race. The only time I've seen the clutch overheat was a post race high speed collision on an oval server. I typically stop the car after a race, and some players ram other cars after a race. One good high speed hit will peg the CT bar and the car can't move at all, which seems excessive, but then again, the car would be totaled anyway.
The twin joystick setup I use works just fine for LFS as it does for GPL, NR2003, rFactor, Race 07, the NFS games, and Microsoft Flight Simulator. I'll use macros for auto-cut and auto-blip, if the game doesn't have the feature. Maybe the wheel and pedals would produce slightly better lap times, mostly because of the force feedback (is force feedback an "assist"?), but it's not important to me, and I'm having fun with racing games.
Even without the macros, clutch overheating isn't an issue, at least not for the LX6. Did you even bother to look at the replay I posted where I drove the LX6 at Blackwood, using full throttle upshifts with auto-clutch, and yet not clutch overheating problems? I still got a sub 1:25 lap time, which is relatively good for me. Link to replay:
I haven't had any problems either, even without macro usage, but apparently there is an issue for some players, or cars, or modes of play. The drifters that use clutch kicking to initiate drifts have a valid complaint if this is causing problems and LFS is supposed to include drift play. Players with single axis for throttle / brake have a valid complaint regarding the removal of auto-blip, since it's not possible to brake and auto-blip at the same time (auto cut isn't needed, since players can just lift on the throttle during upshifts, but having auto-cut saves what some consider to be wasted motion).
I drift in LFS almost as much as I race and have never had any problems with clutch heat when clutch kicking. The problem that seems to be coming up with that is when people try to do donuts and ride the clutch trying to keep the RPMs up, and complain that the clutch heats up too much, when they were riding the clutch.
For the single axis pedal users, I can see the problem. However there are many cheap steering wheels with decent FFB that have separate axis. So, unless their wheel is really old or are using Joysticks(like you) then there shouldn't have any problems with self throttle blip.
You posted an SPR of you inflicting abuse on your LFS car and it appears the LX6 can take it for a while. BUT YOU ARE NOT FLAT SHIFTING, just gear mashing with your foot planted. They are NOT THE SAME.
If you believe you are actually flat shifting PLEASE explain to me HOW you believe you can time the shifts, clutch dip etc because it is IMPOSSIBLE FOR YOU TO DO and you know that.
The people who have "limited" controllers have as much a valid complaint as the people who used keyboard when the old keyboard help was removed.
So out of interest and to save me the time searcing years back in RSC, which side of the fence did you sit on when the old keyboard help was removed. I assume you wanted it gone as you are not a keyboard user.
This will be a very very interesting answer because if you wanted it gone you arguments now look pretty stupid no?
Pot, kettle, black
Please just admit this has NOTHING to do with clutch heat. No its not perfect BUT its not miles out either. It has everything to do with the fact you are not happy that blip and cut were removed.
If its neither, why are you still going on and on?
It's just that JeffR is not happy because cut and blip were removed.
He is just trying make it look otherwise with talk of drag cars, automatic gear boxes and no lift shifters as to why all the LFS cars should let him "flat-shift".
If you want to get techincal, "flat shift" simply means to shift without lifting on the throttle, regardless if the driver or an computerized shifter handles the actual clutch and shift operation:
I don't have to time the shifts and clutch dip when auto clutch is on, the game does it for me.
It didn't matter to me. LFS is just one of many racing games I own, at at the time of the keyboard change, the physics in LFS was still in early development, and it just wasn't important to me. Keyboard players have an advantage in some arcade games I own, but this didn't stop me from playing those games online. However, in the case of LFS, the game's focus is on realism so I can understand that giving keyboard players an unfair advantage didn't fit with the goals of LFS.
My issue is that sometimes a flawed aspect of physics ends up in LFS. I originally bought LFS because it had the LX4 / LX6, and I owned a Caterham, so I was interested in that. However issues with S1's tire physics and the viscous differential created a big disconnect between how the LX6 handled in LFS S1, and real world Super 7 replicas. This was eventually fixed in S2 version S, and I made a post at this forum, about how well the physics was improved at the time. I sold the Caterham back in 2006, but I still find games with Super 7 replicas interesting.
List of stuff in LFS that wasn't or isn't quite "right". Early tire physics (mostly fixed in S2 verion S). Viscous differential (how many cars ever used these?) (fixed in S2 version S). The early collision model (I rarely played online so "explosive" bumpers were not an issue for me) (don't know when this was fixed). Segmented tire model with hot spotting, (I just adjusted maximum braking force to avoid locking up tires). Clutch overheating.
