In sequential mode, I just go down through the gears as the revs approach the correct speeds the corresponding gears. If you wait until you're at the right speed for the target gear, you'll have to flick the shift-down button several times very quickly, which could result in accidentally going too far, or not far enough, down the gears.

In H-pattern mode, it's best to slow down to the desired speed, disengage the clutch (as in, press the clutch pedal), shift directly into the target gear, match the revs as necessary and re-engadge the clutch.

Well, now that you have got yourself a G25 you can downshift like real racing drivers do: heel and toe. The trick is matching the rpm of the engine to the rpm of the gearbox before you let go of the clutch. This is done by quickly "blipping" the throttle with the heel or side of your right foot as you brake. This technique allows you to downshift without putting additional breaking force on the driven wheels, that way you dont disturb the balance of the car. You need to do it for every gear, so if you are in 5th, and corner exit is in 3rd gear you will need to repeat the process twice. That way you can easily keep track of your gears and always be in the right gear at any given speed, giving you instant power for an evasive maneuvere.

Google it if interested, there is a lot of material on it.

Here are a couple of links on heel-and-toe:
http://www.drivingfast.net/car_control/heel_and_toe.htm
http://videos.streetfire.net/v ... c11-8a2f-80db3f41d4d1.htm

Also, g25 pedals are not very well suited for this technique, due to their pedal positioning. There is a relatively effective and really cheap solution to this problem, that can be found here:
http://videos.streetfire.net/v ... c11-8a2f-80db3f41d4d1.htm

Hope all that helps

yah, I have the same question.

Is it faster to double shift or w/e? Like going from 5th to 3rd in one shift.

I can heel-toe fine but whenever I double shift, I drive just as fast and smooth as when I single shift (5 - 4 - 3). Is there any reason to double shift? or is it just easier than shifting down a lot?

Quote from Matt0snap :

yah, I have the same question.

Is it faster to double shift or w/e? Like going from 5th to 3rd in one shift.

I can heel-toe fine but whenever I double shift, I drive just as fast and smooth as when I single shift (5 - 4 - 3). Is there any reason to double shift? or is it just easier than shifting down a lot?

Depends on the car and driver. If you're a good driver in a car which takes a lot of time to brake then you'd probably be quicker going through all the gears on the way down so you could fully exploit the engine braking. If you're not too confident in your abilities or you're in a car which doesn't take a lot of time to brake you'd probably be better skipping gears on the way down. It also depends on what exactly the shift is. Going from 6th to 3rd, for example, is a more difficult shift than going from 6th to 2nd. There aren't really any hard and fast answers, it's all about the driver and the situation. Real racing drivers have to be flexible enough to accommodate these sorts of situations.

Well, I've tried doing both, but I find skipping gears much harder, because you have to be extremely precise with RPM matching, otherwise you are going to lock the driven wheels. So whatever works best for you

As for me, i'm far from being a pro, I myselft started heel-n-toeing only a short while ago, but it has its benefits. Also, you can first practise it without actually braking. Go to ky-oval, and drive at some constant speed, and try to shift up and down without jerking the car. F button hels a lot Say @80 km/h you should be shifting between 2nd and 3rd.

One place I can think of where I go from 6th to 2nd is T1 at SO6 in the FBM.

I hit the brakes at the right point, and flick my paddle (NOT a euphemism, thank you) as fast as I can till I reach second. The engine break allows me to bring the car down to the speed I need to take the corner quickly.

If I changed down slowly then I would over shoot the corner, I could just brake earlier but then I wouldn't have any kind of edge over the other drivers

Quote from xtm :

Well, I've tried doing both, but I find skipping gears much harder, because you have to be extremely precise with RPM matching, otherwise you are going to lock the driven wheels.

I've never had that issue in LFS. As long as you are just a BIT easy on letting in the clutch, I've never had issues with locking the wheels. I don't even match the gears. I know that's bad, but I'm not overheating the clutch, so I guess its okay, lol. All it does it make the rear end a bit squirmy, but it really helps with the braking.

Quote from Stang70Fastback :

I've never had that issue in LFS. As long as you are just a BIT easy on letting in the clutch, I've never had issues with locking the wheels. I don't even match the gears. I know that's bad, but I'm not overheating the clutch, so I guess its okay, lol. All it does it make the rear end a bit squirmy, but it really helps with the braking.

Maybe, i will give it a try By the way, my perspective is lower-range tintop cars, where the breaking distance is significantly longer than say FBW.. Sou you virtually always have enough time to downshift through all gears.

Ah alright then. Yeah, I'm talking like on Fern Bay Black, with the FXR when you're blasting across the bridge in 5th gear, and then as you come down a gentle slope you have to brake for a 150-degree right hander. I tend to just go from 5th to 2nd or 1st and gently let up on the clutch. The car gets really squirrelly (slight downward slope puts less grip on the driven wheels to begin with) but it's lots of fun and it really, REALLY helps slow you down. If I brake as late as I do and don't use the engine to slow down, I will crash into the barrier. Which is really bad cause if you don't shift perfectly, you're screwed, lol.

I've found there's no right way to downshift, its just up to what ever you are comfortable with.

You could heel-toe, but if you find that to much and you want to be racing instead of practicing fancy foot work, you can always try just keeping the clutch in, and blipping only once as you come out of the braking zone.

Heel-toe in short is like this:
-Apply the brakes with the front part of your foot.
-Put the clutch in.
-Put the car in nutral.
-Pull the clutch out.
-Blip the throttle with the side or heel of your foot.
-Put the clutch in.
-Put the car in the next gear down.
-Pull the clutch out.

All of this happens very quickly and can be alot to do, especialy when you have to do it multiple times in a row. You'll also notice that there is a double clutch thrown in there. Alot of LFS players forget about that part, which is required for matching shaft speed to gear speed.
On syncronized transmissions, you don't have to let out the clutch in nutral, but it's a good practice because it saves the syncros.

Then there's the single downshift. I used this alot when I had combined pedals, and I haven't gotten around to shaking it yet. It IS done by pro racers, but you won't find many videos of them doing it unless you realy look hard because everyone is still stuck on the "Heel-Toe is the ONLY way racers do it!" craze.

-You start by braking like you would anyway.
-Then you put the clutch in.
-At this point you can put it in nutral so that in the event you need power it's one throw away, but it's up to you.
-As you come to the end of the braking zone, you ease off the brakes and pad the throttle with your foot as you start the turn in.
-If you put the car in nutral before you can pull the clutch out continue to pad the throttle and re-apply the clutch here.
-Then you put the car in gear and continue through the turn easing on or off the throttle as required.

It's not as complicated as heel-toe, but if you have a need to race and don't want to get kicked from a server for practicing heel-toe and crashing, it works just fine.
I've had a fue races with people who heel-toe for the first time, online is not the best place to practice something like that. And single downshifts are alot easier to get the hang of quickly.

Quote from DragonCommando :

Heel-toe in short is like this:
-Apply the brakes with the front part of your foot.
-Put the clutch in.
-Put the car in nutral.
-Pull the clutch out.
-Blip the throttle with the side or heel of your foot.
-Put the clutch in.
-Put the car in the next gear down.
-Pull the clutch out.

I think that would be double declutching rather then normal heel-n-toe.

Heel n toe is just hit the brakes, disengage the clutch, blip the throttle and downshift, and ur goooood to go. just press that throttle whenever you have to go again.

The problem with that is that you don't actualy syncronize the shaft speed to the gear speed that way, it will still be spinning slower than it needs to be. So if you are driving with an un-syncronized transmission you will still crash the dogs if you don't match the speeds.

Quote from evilpimp :

I think that would be double declutching rather then normal heel-n-toe.

Heel n toe is just hit the brakes, disengage the clutch, blip the throttle and downshift, and ur goooood to go. just press that throttle whenever you have to go again.

agreed. Double declutching with heel toe isn't really needed (especially in LFS) as its mainly used to save up synchronisers, which are quite strong in modern cars...

Heel-and-toe sometimes means different things to different people, because it actually involves several techniques. The key here is that we are often doing two things at once: braking and downshifting.

The first goal in downshifting is rev-matching the clutch plates on downshift vs abusing the clutch. Rev-matching the clutch is what you have to do, period.

The second goal is rev-matching the gears vs "that's what the synchros are for". Here opinions vary. Ross Bentley says it may depend on the car and the track whether it's worth doing.

Double-declutching is the declutch-neutral-clutch-blip-declutch-gear-clutch sequence that does both of the above (if done properly). Instead, you can also shift "straight" (declutch-shift-blip-clutch) to match the clutch revs and let the synchros do their job with the gears.

Now, all of the above is pure shifting action. But because you also have to brake at the same time and your left foot is busy with the clutch, you have to operate the brakes and the throttle with one foot. Which is where heel-and-toe comes in, though depending on the pedal setup it may be more like "side-and-side". (And in some street cars you'll twist your ankle before doing that without modifying the pedals first.)

And then when you downshift, no matter how you do it you can go through gears in sequence or skip. Which is best depends on the situation.

So the gist is, all of the above are separate things you can mix and match. You can heel-and-toe with either straight shifting or double-declutching. Or you can double-declutch without using heel-and-toe if you are not braking at the same time. That's probably not common in racing situations, but on a freeway you may want to go a gear or two down to pass someone. And in any case, you can skip gears (though I'd guess double-declutching is easier on the gearbox then).

Quote from The General Lee :

One place I can think of where I go from 6th to 2nd is T1 at SO6 in the FBM.

Aston National, right by the S turn, kills me

Anyway, My Gosh, what did I start here..lol

I’m still reading through all these, but I have to admit that breaking, and taping the gas is a bitch to say the least. I mean I can slide my foot no problem with these peddles, but I just find it hard to get the RPM’s correct. I guess I just need to practice it slow.
I should have asked; How do you know what RPM is correct when your downshifting? I’m guessing the RPM's would be the same for any gear, but more important is how you match the speed of the car to the gear you intend to go into?

Thanks again to all of you!

Hi!

I thought heel&toe was nearly impossible with the G25 pedals. But then I came across this thread, which describes a very cheap, easy and reversible (if you should regret it) mod which makes it MUCH easier. It's definitely worth checking. I've done it myself, so if you have any questions just ask. (I also posted a picture in there somewhere so you can see what it looks like)

It's still not a very easy technique, but once you get reasonably comfortable doing it, it adds lots to your LFS experience. Just makes it feel even more real.

Here is what you can do to see how you are doing. Get LFS Replay Analyzer, watch your replay and output the data. Then open the analyzer and set it up to see the throttle, gear, clutch, rpms and max slip like in the attached picture. What we see in it are 3 crappy downshifts with the throttle flat at 0. See how when the clutch goes from 100 to 0 the engine gets revved up by the wheels and the slip goes deeper into negative. If done properly, there would be a throttle blip while the clutch is at 100 so the rpms would go up before the clutch drops and the slip would be flatter. Of course, what counts is learning to just do it without thinking but this way you can be sure if it was right or not.

Thanks for posting that link Gnomie, I know it was mentioned above, but I didn't find it!

Wow, an Analyzer? Now were talking
that right there just proves that LFS is no BS!

Quote from DragonCommando :

The problem with that is that you don't actualy syncronize the shaft speed to the gear speed that way, it will still be spinning slower than it needs to be. So if you are driving with an un-syncronized transmission you will still crash the dogs if you don't match the speeds.

Not true. You just have to rev match and that is the whole point of the blip in heel-toe, no need for a double de-clutch. That technique has not been required for many many years now. Gear boxes and the rest of the running gear are just better now.

In my BWM Mini, when I has it, I could downshift direct from 5th to 3rd gear while doing 60-70mph and without the passenger feeling the shift. Its all about rev matching, nothing more. I practiced this because the shift would put me directly in the powerband for the car when I wanted to overtake.

You blip on the downshifts while braking because you do not want the effects of engine braking. If you are braking at the limits of your tyres, something you want to do, and then downshift without matching you lock the wheels so are forced to come off the brakes a bit. This gives you uneven braking and means you take longer to slow.

If you match the revs you dont get the engine braking effects in the same way so you can brake at full force easier and the higher rev load on the engine also help stop the drive wheels locking as it tries to keep them moving.

When engine and gearbox damage get more harsh there will be a huge number of people that have to learn to "unlearn" their LFS bad habbits they currently have. Most of the extreme engine brake techniques you see used in LFS are not possible IRL due to the damage they inflict on the car parts.

IRL you will find that Racing = speed + mechanical sympathy. The clutch heat when implemented caused enough issues but gearbox damage will bring many compaints to the fore