Quote from atlantian :

it is not, aero is prevalent in ALL auto racing sport. if it is then nascar is more embarrassingly simple then i thought because that would be just stripping everything out and looking at a skeleton of a race. which would and is god awfully BORING

That statement in itself just defies logic. Especially after all the technical facts that we've all told you. You know the fact that ovals require MUCH MORE aero then ANY OTHER MOTORSPORTS

The massive amounts of aero is so intense that aero in itself is an important strategic and technical factor in doing well on ovals. This high amount of intensity is prevalent no where else. Why do you think Jacques Villeneuve struggled so hard in his debut races?

If NASCAR was "embarrassingly" simple then by logic people from road course should beat everyone on ovals. But almost every single road course driver who participated on ovals had an embarrassing show (IndyCar series are exceptions).

Quote from lizardfolk :

You do the same in road courses. In fact you have to sit and wait even MORE since the pack spreads out so much. Dont overestimate the "excitement" of driving a difficult curvy circuit. That'll run dry real fast if there's no competition to back that up



No you cant. Driving with heavy competition on a road course will not last more than 5 laps while on ovals it last for the entire race. THINK BEFORE YOU POST



DID YOU NOT READ A SINGLE WORD?

Oval racing require MUCH more aero than ANY OTHER FORM OF MOTORSPORTS and stop referring oval racing as NASCAR. There's plenty of other oval series like IndyCar and ARCA (which i prefer over NASCAR)

I cant understand how you would use the argument of "ovals provide much more competition than road courses" as a ground to be AGAINST oval racing? That in itself just defies logic. Do you even understand a little something called RACING?



Dont state your opinion as if it's the universal truth

In MY opinion close competition is what makes ovals exciting. How you can find close racing boring is completely beyond me. Maybe you dont understand the concept of racing



Apparently this statement is being proven. Word of advice READ AND PONDER BEFORE POSTING

Quote from atlantian :

nascar is more embarrassingly simple then i thought

Quote from atlantian :

you stratigically place ur self in the pack, you bump stratigically

Stop contradicting yourself. There's a thing called logic ever heard of that?

Quote from lizardfolk :

That statement in itself just defies logic. Especially after all the technical facts that we've all told you. You know the fact that ovals require MUCH MORE aero then ANY OTHER MOTORSPORTS

The massive amounts of aero is so intense that aero in itself is an important strategic and technical factor in doing well on ovals. This high amount of intensity is prevalent no where else. Why do you think Jacques Villeneuve struggled so hard in his debut races?

If NASCAR was "embarrassingly" simple then by logic people from road course should beat everyone on ovals. But almost every single road course driver who participated on ovals had an embarrassing show (IndyCar series are exceptions).









Stop contradicting yourself. There's a thing called logic ever heard of that?

You have made several VERY good points proving this fool wrong, but there is no point in even trying anymore. Atlantian, if all you want to do is troll this forum relentlessly, you need to be banned.

jost one note so people get the right picture from my comments. i am a Formula 1 fan since i am 4 years old (1984) actually. and i followed almost every season. and if you compare races from that time to races today, there is a huge difference. in those days, almost all races were somehow exciting. today we have like 6 out of 18 races which are exciting. the exciting races are always the races where something happens which messes up strategies or forcing the teams to take another strategy. (weather, motor, tires) AND of course the final races for the championship. if nothing special is happending, you know who is winning right at the start. on most tracks the best strategy is set and know for all drivers/teams (with the exeption of some races). this is what makes it kind of boring today. if you look at races like barcelona. most of the seasons all the teams are testing 2 weeks before the barcelona race AT barcelona. so basically all setups/strategies are fixed. and in the end you have almost the same order as at the start. the high technical standard is fascinating and the will of the drivers to put their cars into that speed is tremendous, but you barely see an overtaking on the tracks anymore (either its for lapping, pitstops or mechanical problems) but not for infight like piquet vs. senna. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfJ5A9sBZiE

and this is the real problem in formula one. the technical influence today is much more important then the drivers ability.

thats why spec racing is so much more exciting to watch. take the A1GP series (world championships of motorsports) they are going to drive the 2007 F1 ferrari car from 2008 season on. EVERY driver is going to drive the same car which kimi raikönen won the championships. i think this will be interesting and a shit load of fun to watch. (i hope the live streams in the internet will be stable enough to watch it)


rally sports: i am fan of rally racing since my father started in local rally racing as a co-pilot (he did not do that for long) during the late 80ies. to be honest i'd probably shit my pants going through a hill forest with 90mph on the left side trees on the right side a steep pit and a road which is tighter then my 15 year old cousine with only the information the copilot is giving me, not knowing what is behind the next corner. exciting! interesting as a driver but as a spectator? rally is so interesting, much happens (crashes, tragedies, even close fights on the 1vs.1 special stages). it is just not possible to cover it adequate on TV. (btw. i'd love to have more point to point rally races in LFS, i am thinking about starting something like Rally LFS ....)


motorbikes: i love motor bike races, as there you have a lot of overtakings, the guys are just insane riding on those kind of machines at the thin edge of friction...
...
...
... add almost all forms of motorsport ...

to sum it up, i have deep respect for all drivers risking their ass. i love all kind of racing to watch for the one or the other aspect.

driving in a game it is different for me. i like the "direct" competition more then the fight against the clock. thats why i mostly drive oval races as its more about interacting with each other then keeping the perfect line for the most laps in a row. but thats just a matter of taste.

i will never say: ".... (add form of racing) racing is stupid and bullshit" just because i respect everyones decision why he/she favors this or that kind of driving. but what i do not understand is, how people can be so ignorant and still do not stop being that way even when they are given good reasons to shut up.

double post.. sorry

Fisch we seem to keep repeating ourselves. This is a real shame and I've talked so much I'm blue in the face (no pun intended )

Quote from Fischfix :

i will never say: ".... (add form of racing) racing is stupid and bullshit" just because i respect everyones decision why he/she favors this or that kind of driving. but what i do not understand is, how people can be so ignorant and still do not stop being that way even when they are given good reasons to shut up.

Quote from lizardfolk :

I have enough respect for racing in general that I dont go around and troll "OMG THIS SUCKS ITS BORING" to whatever discipline I find boring. I try to stay as open minded as possible because in the end, racing is racing. They all require skill and they are all exciting in their own way. All that matters is your own personal preferences. But have enough respect for yourself to leave those who are different alone

Quote from lizardfolk :

why do we always have to compare which discipline is better to "satisfy our own superiority complex"? Why can't different disciplines of racing or motorsports (rally, drag, ovals, circuits, autoX, drifting) just be different and left at that? I find drifting incredibly boring. But I dont go around bashing drifting whenever I feel like it because I have enough respect for this great sport and myself to sit back and go "you know what? It doesn't matter whether I find it exciting or not. All that matters is if THEY find it exciting. Who am I to tell someone else what should be "correct" or "entertaining"? It's a real shame this attitude is so rare to find

Quote from Fischfix :

tighter then my 15 year old cousine

How would you know??? :eek:

oh, btw, rally is the most spectator-unfriendly sport there is... so i would say it's doing well being the second biggest in the world.

Quote from atlantian :

oh, btw, rally is the most spectator-unfriendly sport there is...

Not really. "Xtreme" sports like rallies always have a following, they are similar to motorcross. The whole off road discipline has always contained a heavy following regardless of whether it's rally or trucks or w/e.

Quote from atlantian :

so i would say it's doing well being the second biggest in the world.

Second Biggest? I think your also forgetting Le Mans (including ALMS), WTCC, MotoGP, IndyCar and the other formulas (GP2, F3)

^actually, i am talking about rallies like WRC where spectators need to camp out in the rain for days...

Atlantian, I'd like to ask you a single question. In fact I would like to direct the question at all the oval bashers.

Lets just totally forget that racing is a spectator sport for a minute. After all we dont play LFS to be spectators, we are here to be drivers, and in some cases support a driver via voice over IP. So the spectator followings don't matter here.

That said the question is quite simple, and I probably already know atlantian's answer. Have you ever experienced (sim racing or otherwise) the tension of being in the middle of a 3 wide situation, where the slightest twitch will take all 3 of you off track, at 170+ mph?

The answer is most likely no, oval bashers have not experienced this. And they aren' willing to, for fear of being proven wrong.

Even in the BMW-Sauber F1.06 the above situtation is truly hair raising, because of just how fast things happen at that speed. You might think that statement is a little obvious, but think about it for a moment. You are mere inches from your opponents, leaving you with less than a rally course's width to race on, in a situtation where you must recognize the fact that while racing these people, you must also cooperate to avoid mutually assured destruction, and if any of the 3 (or 4, ive seen this happen on the Kyoto oval as well) sneezes, twitches, or even shifts your foot on the throttle, it will end the race for all 3 of you.

owen, i've stopped to answer to any of the comments of atlantian, as we won't get any intelligent reply anyway.

lets get back to the topic...

yesterday, i've tried the new Tweak tool (not sure how it is called), and modified the XRG/XRT to like 650 HP (6 liter 8 cylinder)... and gave it a spin on the oval... man... who says this oval is flat out...flat yes, but flat in terms of banking. T3 is so flat, you have to brake a lot (brake down to like 170 km/h) to get through it. you have to slow down before all of the turns, and if you accelerate too early or to fast, your rear just drags you to the wall or you spin out....

we just do not have a proper tin-top for this track. besides the wheels were burned in like 3 laps (because we do not have slick tires for those cars). it was still fun to challenge the AI...

if you don't have the tweak tool, try the FZ5 or one of the LX cars on the oval, its probably the closest to that felling, although you do not have to brake before T1 and T2 because these cars are much slower then the modified XRG/XRT and the weight distribution is totally different and even different to a stockcar

Nascar is only entertaining when they crash.
I personally don't find it entertaining, i also don't find F1 entertaining, and most world class races.

I prefer the small time races in australia, lots of close racing and aren't afraid to give each other a little bump every now and then.

don´t waste time using logic to prove anything to atlantian. it hurts to see how some of you put so much effort in talking to him in a comprehensible/reasonable manner. it´s hard to accept (as he is human and has a brain just like us) that he can not think! but this is what he has proven to all of us who can.

he can´t, he probably never could, he surely never will.

there are more like him - very rare, but i´ve met at least one of this kind before.

and i´m sure that you can not learn logic thinking. feel free to post ONE example that shows i´m wrong (not you, atlantian - anyone else but you)



everything else i wanna say would be against the forum rules and
make no difference anyway, for reasons i just told you, so ...

Quote from Klutch :

Nascar is only entertaining when they crash.
I personally don't find it entertaining

wow, that's what i was going to say!

Quote from atlantian :

wow, that's what i was going to say!

Just because you don't like a certain series doesn't mean you can troll everyone who does. Stop posting in this thread or ANY other thread related to ovals.

Quote from atlantian :

wow, that's what i was going to say!

You should read the rest of the comment:

Quote from Klutch :

i also don't find F1 entertaining, and most world class races.

I prefer the small time races in australia, lots of close racing and aren't afraid to give each other a little bump every now and then.

He's not bashing NASCAR or ovals he's making a comment about the "elitism" within a high caliber series. Notice how he said: "i also don't find F1 entertaining, and most world class races"......good job retard :rolleyes: Learn to read.

And responding to your comment Klutch I can relate to that sometimes when I watch ARCA. Sometimes ARCA races are much more entertaining than NASCAR's

oval and stockcar is not all about banked, concrete/tarmac ovals. actually the origin of oval racing was on dirt ovals and until the mid 50ies most of the races in the grand national series (predecessor of nascar) were held on flat dirt ovals.

today there are a lot of dirt races (UK, USA, Canada, Austrialia, South Africa, New Zealand) with so called sprint cars (the ones with that funny big wing on the roof. or other classes like street stock cars (real cars you can buy and are basically modified with a roll cage) and its fun and entertaining as well. i would not have anything against something like that in lfs as well...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirt_track_racing

tracks (the amount shows its popularity)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirt_track_racing_in_Australia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirt_track_racing_in_the_U.K.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirt_track_racing_in_Canada
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D ... cing_in_the_United_States

quote from wikipedia: "Dirt track racing is the single most common form of auto racing in the United States. There are hundreds of local and regional racetracks throughout the nation: some estimates range as high as 1500."



why not having a short track oval (banked) location, where the infield builds a dirt track (flat oval).
this will be a lot of fun with cars like the mrt, rb4,... and maybe a new dirt oval stock car...

Most dirt tracks are banked too.

Quote from UncleBenny :

Most dirt tracks are banked too.

Not all the ones in the UK are (or they aren't that steep) as they are also used for speedway.

Quote from Fischfix :

oval and stockcar is not all about banked, concrete/tarmac ovals. actually the origin of oval racing was on dirt ovals and until the mid 50ies most of the races in the grand national series (predecessor of nascar) were held on flat dirt ovals.

today there are a lot of dirt races (UK, USA, Canada, Austrialia, South Africa, New Zealand) with so called sprint cars (the ones with that funny big wing on the roof. or other classes like street stock cars (real cars you can buy and are basically modified with a roll cage) and its fun and entertaining as well. i would not have anything against something like that in lfs as well...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirt_track_racing

tracks (the amount shows its popularity)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirt_track_racing_in_Australia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirt_track_racing_in_the_U.K.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirt_track_racing_in_Canada
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D ... cing_in_the_United_States

quote from wikipedia: "Dirt track racing is the single most common form of auto racing in the United States. There are hundreds of local and regional racetracks throughout the nation: some estimates range as high as 1500."



why not having a short track oval (banked) location, where the infield builds a dirt track (flat oval).
this will be a lot of fun with cars like the mrt, rb4,... and maybe a new dirt oval stock car...

I actually don't mind Super Sedan or Sprint car racing.

On TV it's boring as all hell, but when going to see it in person it was really cool to see, especially the demo derby that came after :P

And a Super sedan type of car along with a dirt oval track implemented in LFS would be interesting, to say the least.