Quote from niels1 :

Nice Vid. I wonder how you set the wheel up in rFactor. For some reason I cant get it right in rFactor. The wheel doesnt center very well. In center it feels like it wanna go left or right. When holding it in center on the straight it gives resistance.

Firstly you need to use Real Feel, rF's default FF isn't physics based so there's no point in even trying it.

I used these Real Feel settings:


Note that both these mods are very unusual in that they don't require the force at steering rack to be negative. Had I played around with the settings I'm sure I could get the 911 wheel to perform better I was just doing it as is as it's interesting to see the effect some really raw physics based feedback had on it.

Quote from Shotglass :

nice test but i cant really agree with your verdict on the results
first of all the 911 wheel turned a lot faster than the dfp (to be expected considering how slow the dfp is)
and secondly it was able to pull out of a donut at 900° which the dfp was completely unable to and iirc the g25 didnt manage to do that either

The 911 wheel only pulled out of donuts in LFS, except for the odd time it pulled out of it, the one in the video is one of its better attempts. It wouldn't have it at all in the 911 and I had just about finishing blaming Real Feel, the track, the mod and the weather when my jaw dropped when my DFP just reliably pulled out of it.

Quote from Hyperactive :

No offense but it looks a bit of test that is more based on feel than numbers . Were the speeds equal in the start of every drift test with same gear and similar driver inputs?

I did a variety of tests starting in 2nd gear not on the rev limiter (LFS only) 2nd gear on the rev limiter, 3rd gear not on the rev limiter and 3rd gear on the rev limiter (rF only). In every test I held full throttle throughout. I tried varying steering inputs to find out exactly what it took, I suppose more accurate measurements could be taken in LFS at least by looking at the steering gauge.

I recorded 15gb of movies, which was a mistake because I didn't have time to watch them all and selected a few and deleted the rest. I formulated my opinions separately to the video.

The donut tests were far more consistent, the wheel was fantastic in LFS pulling out of every donut I through at it. In rF, however, it just wasn't having it. As expected the DFP refused to pull out of a donut at anything other than 300 degrees at which point it worked in rF perfectly as well. If you were just buying or testing this wheel for LFS it would win hands down, the oversteer tests in LFS were genuinely impressive, it can deal with a lot of lighter situations although I couldn't really bring myself to say it would be usable given the rFactor performance and the failure on big slides in LFS. It was, however, a massive improvement over both the DFP and G25 and the 911 wheels strongest point. I was suprised though at how well the DFP did at 300 compared to the 911 wheel and the G25 tests Niels did, that's not to knock the other two but it just amazed me how close they were.

TBH I'm not convinced the 3 angles are the best to test, there's little point in testing 900 if they're still struggling at 600. I will do another test when my new rF dongle arrives (which may reduce any lag related rF issues) and compare the wheels at the angles people are actually going to use them at (720, 540, 400) mainly in rF with the 911 as that seems to be the trickiest test subject and I'll try the effect on both wheels of different smoothing numbers and other settings. This time though I'll be much more disciplined in finding a speed gear the same piece of road and try and find a way of more consistent wheel movement if possible and most importantly I'll only do one take of everything so I don't end up with another mountain of videos to wade through

Quote :

And wouldn't it be easier to just measure the "speed" and the steering lag of each wheel and compare the numbers?

Doing the kind of FF test Neils described would be interesting but you could calculate that result much more accurately by looking at motor specifications, the gearing and the rotating mass. What this test does show is how the wheel deals with very small changes in direction and it identifies any lag, given the problems I've been having with lag, especially in rF that may not be helping the 911 wheel. I put the throttle bars on so I could double check that the throttle (and presumably steering) had not lagged.

On a side note I should add the 911 wheel's fan never came on so heat shouldn't be an issue.

Gentlemen,

I heard from several testers that they solved their connection problems as soon as they connected the dongle to a real USB 2.0 port and not a 1.1.

This wheel does require a USB 2.0 port so please check if this solves your problem. Beside that we recommend using the direct ports on the Motherboard or a USB hub with external power supply to make sure that the dongle has enough power.

If this does not help, we send new RF dongles.

Thomas

Quote from ArrAssAdor :

Gentlemen,

I heard from several testers that they solved their connection problems as soon as they connected the dongle to a real USB 2.0 port and not a 1.1.

This wheel does require a USB 2.0 port so please check if this solves your problem. Beside that we recommend using the direct ports on the Motherboard or a USB hub with external power supply to make sure that the dongle has enough power.

If this does not help, we send new RF dongles.

Thomas

Hadn't thought of that, no idea if my front ports are USB 2.0 or not. I hope using an extension cable from a rear port won't have a negative effect because I can't get it in without taking everything else out due to its shape. It also means I can have it right up to the wheel this way but still not have to have any physical connection so it doesn't cause any inconvenience.

I asked myself what the main factors might be for a wheel to succeed a "Niels Test"?

That's what I came up with:
1.) response latency
2.) turning speed

I have no idea how to improve the first one, but isn't the second one determent by gearing between engine and steering column?

The majority of reviews I read attested the F911 wheel a very strong feedback, if desired. So would it be possible to sacrifice some strength in favour of turning speed?

Thomas Jackermeier posted in the german LFS Forum that they changed for example the length of the pedal cable after community input. Maybe they consider to enhance the wheel to perform better at the "Niels Test".

Clarkson voice: "How hard can it be?"

Sorry for my lousy english btw.

Quote from ajp71 :

Hadn't thought of that, no idea if my front ports are USB 2.0 or not. I hope using an extension cable from a rear port won't have a negative effect because I can't get it in without taking everything else out due to its shape. It also means I can have it right up to the wheel this way but still not have to have any physical connection so it doesn't cause any inconvenience.

The extension cable doesnt have a negative effect. I use the extension cable from the day I got the wheel. Indeed due to the shape it doesnt fit on a mobo supplied USB port. I havent got any issues of the dongle. Works without any interruption.

I made a little FFB test program, it's pretty simple right now (made in 5 mins or less), if I have a little more free time I'll make something better.
Edit: I forgot that at the moment it only works if Spring effect is at 100% in the control panel.

Quote from ajp71 :

The 911 wheel only pulled out of donuts in LFS, except for the odd time it pulled out of it, the one in the video is one of its better attempts. It wouldn't have it at all in the 911 and I had just about finishing blaming Real Feel, the track, the mod and the weather when my jaw dropped when my DFP just reliably pulled out of it.

i dont see any pulling out of donuts in lfs with the dfp at 900 in your vid and since i own one myself im absolutely certain that there is no way in hell it could accomplish that

at 300 the 911 wheel looks a bit like its lag (either the wireless or just usb running at 125hz (any chance to put this to the maximum 1khz a usb connection can pull off ArrAssAdor?)) and the relatively quick ffb add up to make things worse

i hope niels finds that test tool so we can get some real consistent reliable and empiric measurements

Quote :

This time though I'll be much more disciplined in finding a speed gear the same piece of road and try and find a way of more consistent wheel movement if possible and most importantly I'll only do one take of everything so I don't end up with another mountain of videos to wade through

theres an easy way to get some more or less consistent measurements at speed
1) set one gear so that it tops out at a sensible speed for the test (80 kmh or something)
2) write a keypress macro that sends 2 "P" key presses at a certain distance (1 sec or something to that effect)

actual test:
3) drive the car with the wheel straight at redline in the preset gear
4) press "P" to pause the game
5) turn the wheel to some degrees which are easy to measure (90° should work well)
6) press the macro to unpause the game hold the wheel steady and wait for lfs to pause again 1 sec later
7) let go off the wheel
8) unpause lfs and enjoy the carnage

Quote from RedQuad :

The majority of reviews I read attested the F911 wheel a very strong feedback, if desired. So would it be possible to sacrifice some strength in favour of turning speed?

I've yet to read any objective review of the force feedback system in this wheel, my video is about as close as it gets but it's still far to subjective.

Quote from Shotglass :

i dont see any pulling out of donuts in lfs with the dfp at 900 in your vid and since i own one myself im absolutely certain that there is no way in hell it could accomplish that

The DFP pulled out of 3 donuts everytime at 300 at 600 and 900 it never pulled out of one. The 911 pulled out of the LFS donuts everytime but only just managed one rF donut at 300. I can't really ignore the fact that it was so hopeless in my tests in rF, because I think we can assume a lot of buyers will not be buying exclusively for LFS and the next gen of sims may well take the rawer force feedback with less smoothing than LFS.

Quote :

theres an easy way to get some more or less consistent measurements at speed
1) set one gear so that it tops out at a sensible speed for the test (80 kmh or something)
2) write a keypress macro that sends 2 "P" key presses at a certain distance (1 sec or something to that effect)

actual test:
3) drive the car with the wheel straight at redline in the preset gear
4) press "P" to pause the game
5) turn the wheel to some degrees which are easy to measure (90° should work well)
6) press the macro to unpause the game hold the wheel steady and wait for lfs to pause again 1 sec later
7) let go off the wheel
8) unpause lfs and enjoy the carnage

That's much better and simpler than just doing it randomly. I'll go and see what happens with more real world wheel values

EDIT - ok here's the second attempt

Quote from ajp71 :

I've yet to read any objective review of the force feedback system in this wheel, my video is about as close as it gets but it's still far to subjective.

Language barrier strikes again !

Let me put it this way: Wouldn't the wheel turn faster, thus perform better at a "Niels Test", if you changed the gear ratio?
This would lower the pure force the engine applies to the steering column but increase the rotational speed.
My DFP can deliver more force than I ever would use (I use 101% both in LFS/Profiler) so a G25/911 should have even more left.

Quote from RedQuad :

Language barrier strikes again !

Let me put it this way: Wouldn't the wheel turn faster, thus perform better at a "Niels Test", if you changed the gear ratio?
This would lower the pure force the engine applies to the steering column but increase the rotational speed.
My DFP can deliver more force than I ever would use (I use 101% both in LFS/Profiler) so a G25/911 should have even more left.

The thing is, faster rotation of the wheel may have nothing to do with how well the car gets out from spin or drift when you let the ffb correct itself. With too slow rotation the wheel can't keep up or catch the car while with too fast it may over correct or exxagerate the steering inputs. The end result is probaly a mix of these. That's why the niels test doesn't prove really much

Hyperactive: If you are looking for answer, which one is easier to drift with or race with, then the winner is G25. It just gives so much better feedback. I guarante that.

But after coming back to G25 to do some comparision I noticed more than ever "lack of FFB in the center" - issue that 911 wheel doesn't have.

911 also feels less mechanical than G25, but as I said, at the same time there is lack of feedback from it.

Quote from kamkorPL :

Hyperactive: If you are looking for answer, which one is easier to drift with or race with, then the winner is G25. It just gives so much better feedback. I guarante that.

I was just commenting that the niels test doesn't prove or highlight the better wheel because faster rotation or stronger FF doesn't always mean that the outcome from the test would be "better".

How does G25 provide better feedback? What's exactly better?

Quote from kamkorPL :

Hyperactive: If you are looking for answer, which one is easier to drift with or race with, then the winner is G25. It just gives so much better feedback. I guarante that.

But after coming back to G25 to do some comparision I noticed more than ever "lack of FFB in the center" - issue that 911 wheel doesn't have.

911 also feels less mechanical than G25, but as I said, at the same time there is lack of feedback from it.

i totally agree.

I have the offcentre issue again. replugging the wheel doesn't help (can't calibrate it too).

EDIT: plugging the USB dongle in and out doesn't help too but i can calibrate it now. But it's kinda annoying to do that after every race in TDU. Can't imagine doping that in LFS. And i guess the USB is 2.0 since it's plugged in at the back of the motherbaord, which is an AB9 QuadGT with an ICH8R chipset (and 965P).

Quote from Hyperactive :

How does G25 provide better feedback? What's exactly better?

It's hard to explain. It is more predictable, it's stronger, it's more "RAW", it gives information "sooner/quicker". For 911 I kinda have to wait(It's not like "waiting", but this difference in quickness is very noticable when drifting and racing). Hard to explain. Imagine that G25 makes you feel like driving a race track car, making things not so comfortable for "daily street use", while 911 wheel makes you feel like driving street sports car, giving you comfortable "soft feedback" that is a compromise for race track use and "daily street use".

FFB is something you have to feel to understand. You will just have to take my word for it or try yourself(which is best way ofcourse).

Quote from kamkorPL :

Hyperactive: If you are looking for answer, which one is easier to drift with or race with, then the winner is G25. It just gives so much better feedback. I guarante that.

But after coming back to G25 to do some comparision I noticed more than ever "lack of FFB in the center" - issue that 911 wheel doesn't have.

911 also feels less mechanical than G25, but as I said, at the same time there is lack of feedback from it.

Same here, kamkor. The uber-tight Meganes in rF suddenly felt limp after I changed back to G25. Actually, turns seemed more difficult to make (contrary to the Corvette with countersteering situations). Yet, lap times improved by 1 second on a 1 minute lap, on average.

The reason for the good on-centre feel of the 911 is simple, however. It always seems to have a centering spring/damping mechanism on, regardless of controller settings. So, it feels nice on the easy side of the slip curve, but is out of ideas where more than the basic, linear force feedback is in order.

I wrote to Fanatec that they should give us an opportunity to try the wheel without the centering spring on, haven't received a reply yet.

narka!

Quote from isamu :

OK a few comments I would like to make:

Fanatec and Logitech will never manufacture an industrial quality set of pedals or shifter on par with the likes of ECCI, Frex, TSW, or A1. .

I cant speak for our friends from Logitech but in our case this statement is certainly not true. You just will not have to pay such a fortune for it. The Porsche 911 Turbo wheel will not be our High-End version so please be a little bit patient and let us get started...

now youre talking
single reduction belt drive with brushless? please say yes

the wheel finally arrived at my house today the ffb is very smooth and it's much quieter than my DFP. I dont really have anything extra to add... I'll try and get a vid up during the weekend.

the brake pedal seems to have a bit too short travel for me, but I think i'm getting used to it. healto'ing is no problem. the shifter is a little wobbly...

like everyone else is saying, i expected the ffb to be stronger and more "violent", but it feels very smooth. i need more time w/ the wheel to have a real opinion of the FFB.

Quote from ArrAssAdor :

I cant speak for our friends from Logitech but in our case this statement is certainly not true. You just will not have to pay such a fortune for it. The Porsche 911 Turbo wheel will not be our High-End version so please be a little bit patient and let us get started...

nice!

in my opinion the problem is wheel inertia.

i didn't weight the G25 steering wheel and the 911 but it can be a good comparison; also the bigger diameter help you to have more force to apply to the FF motor and the double belt doesn't improve the overall feeling.

a lighter and smaller wheel with a single belt, a good vertical and lower position, can be the solution for an highend wheel.

BTW i feel too that there's allways a springor damping effect on.

Quote from Shotglass :

now youre talking
single reduction belt drive with brushless? please say yes

It is too early to talk about it but be sure that I will ask the community again what they want. We are working on all kind of stuff including motion sims. All under the condition to have a great price performance.

But lets make it step by step. First we have to make this product succesful and so far it looks very promising. Most of the remaining flaws can be easily resolved so i think this is a good start.

Quote from IronFly :

nice!

in my opinion the problem is wheel inertia.

i didn't weight the G25 steering wheel and the 911 but it can be a good comparison; also the bigger diameter help you to have more force to apply to the FF motor and the double belt doesn't improve the overall feeling.

a lighter and smaller wheel with a single belt, a good vertical and lower position, can be the solution for an highend wheel.

BTW i feel too that there's allways a springor damping effect on.

This feeling is actually not caused by the belts or by the gear ratio. In fact our gear ratio is more direct than the competition.
The inertia is caused by the motor driver IC. Take off the power supply and move the wheel so you will see.
This has positive and negative effects. On the positive side we dont have a deadzone in the middle and the FF effects are more accurate.
On the negative the wheel moves slightly slower. But as we have seen on Youtube, this is not really a problem if you get used to it.

It is a matter of taste. But I can ask if we can reduce the inertia a little bit in the long run.

The primary target is to get to the same level as the best wheel out there and now we will do some fine tuning to get beyond that point.

hi ArrAssAdor,

a double belt system is more "elastic" then a geardriven wheel, so i thought that a single belt can give a more "RAW" feeling and reduce the inertia thing or "softness" of small FF inputs.

yeah i did the test of the wheel without power supply, it feel smooth but braked comparing to G25.
the electric motor, imho, is the real problem overall. it's like having (speaking as an audiophile) allways a white noise in the background of a powerfull system.
it can give you a lot of db power but if i want to hear a "piainissimo or piano" i can't hear it well.

i hope that you can understand what i mean.

BTW i like some technical solution and mechanical construction (as i wrote you in my email).

a really good start!

PS: can i suggest one thing? it's possible by software to disable the wheel leds? racing mostly during the night they are a little bit too bright.

Quote from ArrAssAdor :

This feeling is actually not caused by the belts or by the gear ratio. In fact our gear ratio is more direct than the competition.
The inertia is caused by the motor driver IC. Take off the power supply and move the wheel so you will see.
This has positive and negative effects. On the positive side we dont have a deadzone in the middle and the FF effects are more accurate.
On the negative the wheel moves slightly slower. But as we have seen on Youtube, this is not really a problem if you get used to it.

It is a matter of taste. But I can ask if we can reduce the inertia a little bit in the long run.

The primary target is to get to the same level as the best wheel out there and now we will do some fine tuning to get beyond that point.

Okay, ArrAssAdor, but the main point about the wheel, as seems to be the consensus among testers, is that its FF is LESS accurate, not more. Also, many testers seem to agree that there seems to be some centering spring at all times. I have centering spring off everywhere, and the wheel keeps centering itself when the car is stationary in rF (will check back with LFS in a while). The speed of the wheel is not an issue, as seen on kamkor's drifting video - the directness and accuracy of FF is - as expressed by kamkor himself, and confirmed by myself and others.

I was driving the Corvette C6 in Lienz for hours on your wheel, trying to have fun fishtailing it a bit. But I could never catch it, couldn't feel the edge of traction on the front wheels and apply that little understeer when needed. Then I changed to G25, and it was as though someone took a blindfold off my eyes and shackles from my hands - the inputs became legible, I knew instinctively what's happening with the wheels.

So, while it feels nice and realistic to have a "heavy" feel on the wheel, I'm not sold on it unless the inputs become clearer, and I am sure that one way to do that would be to do away with that centering force/damper thing.

And I cannot use the wheel anymore because it keeps going off-centre every lap or two - I am confident, however, that it is a minor niggle that can be dealt with through new drivers.

And a question to other users - are you experiencing the problem of pressing the top row buttons inadvertently all the time? I think they are too big and too close to the rim. I have de-assigned the outer-upper buttons, (1, 7), but still I press buttons 3 and 5 sometimes.

Having said all that, I love the wheel for how it is built so well, I love the H-shifter, and the whole idea of making a wheel better than the best so far. I think that it can happen if a few things are addressed.

Quote from ArrAssAdor :

It is too early to talk about it but be sure that I will ask the community again what they want.

a company that actually listens?
i know its a silly sentiment but that makes me want to buy stuff from you more than any niels test