Quote from Mogar :

I don't have to prove to you that I'm inteligent, because you're not my costumer, nor have paid several months ago in advance for something that I didn't release yet.

You have already gotten what you paid for. The devs could just draw the line and say what we have now is S2 final. Don't complain about not getting what you paid for when you already have. You don't like it the way it is, and that is OK, but it is not the same as not receiving the item you have paid for.

Quote from Mogar :

Nothing personal of course.

And just to clarify, I was NOT calling the devs lazy (I still prefer to believe that they are working hard, just having trouble to do the necessary improvements since code a software like this is far from easy, and I know that, but they could show us on what they were working on). Just wanted to give a strong example, and I run short of words to express my feelings.

Yes, you did call them lazy. Your comment comes across like the devs should not be able to take a weekend off because you have not gotten what you wanted. It might not be what you intended to say, but that is what you said.

Quote from Mogar :

Ok ok, let's keep the "shhhh, devs are working" for ever. We could even suggest to disable the forum, then there will not be anyone complaining here about bugs, long delays, etc. Let the devs do what they want at the time that they want, and give money to them trusting that we will have some update in the future.

You would have to be very very stupid for that. If you want to be a respectable dev, you need to respect your costumers.

Now you think you can tell us what the devs are thinking. These devs respect their customers more than any other game developers I have ever seen. You do not respect or trust their judgment, so you think that gives you the right to imply they are lazy and that they don't respect you. You sound like a child who needs immediate gratification and just can't understand it when you can't have what you want right now, now, now, gimme, gimmme, I want it nooowwwwww!

Quote from Mogar :

I'm not complaining without reasons to be complaining.

Yes, you are.

Quote from Mogar :

And before someone start to criticize me,

you throw inuendo and accusations and then stand back and expect to not have your thoughts critisized is just plain ignorant.

Quote from Mogar :

just think if you are facing LFS as a game instead a simulator. If you are using locked differentials on non-drag races, so, just shut up.

sigh... no, using locked diffs is not realistic. But it also does not drastically detract from the usability of the program for its intended purpose. You just have to get past this stuff and let it go. We have brought it to the attention of the developers. They will fix it as soon as they can.

Quote from Mogar :

I'm not frustated with LFS itself, but with the way that ppl are exploiting bugs as if it was a normal thing, but it's CHEATING (it's the SAME thing than using wall hacks or bunny hops on FPS games), and the lost of contact of the devs with the community.

So, are you nieve enough to think that just because it is an exploit, that nobody will use it? It is best to expose this stuff and use it so it is the same for everybody. If it is the same for everybody (WHICH IT IS), then it is not cheating.

Quote from Mogar :

So actually I'm frustrated with the people involved with LFS than LFS itself. If LFS din't have those bugs, the situation would be different, but the fault is from the people involved with LFS. It may sound contraditory with what I've saying for some time, but it's something that I concluded now.

Yeah, yeah. You again are just lamenting that you can't have what you want right now, you sound very spoiled. Only somebody who has not worked hard and long to achieve something big could ever think that something as difficult and complex as LFS could be fixed RIGHT NOW, just because you want it to be. I know your mommy probably wipes your butt for you just as soon as you are done going poo, but the real world just isn't the same.

Speed Soro - the more you cry about how unfair life is and how all the girls hate you, the LESS likely Scawen is to post. It's compaints like yours (i.e. unreasonable considering we all knew how LFS was developed, or could have found out, and that LFS isn't behind scedule because there isn't one) that drive devs to suicide (or terminal silence).

Give us and the devs a break and calm down, please. Pretty please. I'll give you all the mints and sweets I have in my pocket.

Quote :

He never ever did ask, what you would prefer to see next

I might be wrong, but I thought that I have already seen they asking that kind of thing, at least once.


But one thing you can't deny, we always had a idea of what was comming on next patch and a estimate date of the release, and usually they surprised us doing more than they said they were going to do on S1 days


Maybe they stopped doing that since the several delays of S2 release. If I'm not wrong, it was promised first to something like last quarter from 2004, and then it was delayed, delayed, until some beta tester leaked one version, and the devs almost had to release a demo to avoid ppl playing a faulty version (the leaked version had some obvious faults, that could make angry ppl even angrier).

But we can't forget that the Devs were much far from what they have expected to released in S2. Damage modeling, new diffs and some other things were planned only to S3. Maybe they didn't plan accordingly, or thought that they could do more than they actually could do.


Anyway, I still think that it's much more "healthy" to LFS to keep the community informed about the developing process. Today, we know almost nothing, that gives margin to some ppl think wrong things, and maybe make ppl angry.


I think that although there is no way to make everyone happy, the strong supporters (like I was) liked much more the days that we were informed about the developing process, than today, that we know nothing (we just know that someday somehow the devs plan to make a workaround on the aero and tyre bug, and maybe they will make S3, nothing more than this).

Quote :

Yes, you did call them lazy. Your comment comes across like the devs should not be able to take a weekend off because you have not gotten what you wanted. It might not be what you intended to say, but that is what you said.

I'm not against anyone taking a break, but the way that the devs said, it looks like the break was too long. I know that after working for a so long time on a project it's normal to loose interest for a while, look for other activities, so a break is needed.




Anyway, LFS is still on my computer hd, taking some dust, but I will eventually try it again when a new patch is released.


And BTW, as I said before, I prefer much more a patch fixing only one issue, than a hyper mega patch fixing all bugs and adding features. The small patches could be released as test patches like the language patchs.

Quote :

Yeah, yeah. You again are just lamenting that you can't have what you want right now, you sound very spoiled. Only somebody who has not worked hard and long to achieve something big could ever think that something as difficult and complex as LFS could be fixed RIGHT NOW, just because you want it to be. I know your mommy probably wipes your butt for you just as soon as you are done going poo, but the real world just isn't the same.

I'm probably so unsatisfied since LFS is the only game that I play (or whatever is used for electronic entertainment) since I donwloaded the S1a demo (something like september or october 2003). And it started to be a more a way to be stressed than have fun on the last months, and maybe it's normal when you are a big fan from something and you get frustrated with it to be very angry.

Quote :

Give us and the devs a break and calm down, please. Pretty please. I'll give you all the mints and sweets I have in my pocket.

Just a single line from Scawen on the LFS main site (except "it will be released when it's done") could be much more effective than your mints and sweets. If he says "the next patch will be released on 2007 with only the aero and tyre bug fixed", I would say ok, at least I have a date to check again the site if there is something new about it, and stop acting like a dumb checking the forum weekly to see if there is any info about the development process, and get irritaded with ppl with the "shhhhhh... devs are working" attitude.

Quote :

You sound like a child who needs immediate gratification and just can't understand it when you can't have what you want right now, now, now, gimme, gimmme, I want it nooowwwwww!

I waited for a long time before complaining for a new patch release..... Before I complained about the progress reports, but after 7 months without improvements on the way that the car acts on LFS, I think that it was enough time to Scawen fix at least the aero bug and release a patch with the fix

Quote from Mogar :

And before someone start to criticize me, just think if you are facing LFS as a game instead a simulator. If you are using locked differentials on non-drag races, so, just shut up.


I'm not frustated with LFS itself, but with the way that ppl are exploiting bugs as if it was a normal thing, but it's CHEATING (it's the SAME thing than using wall hacks or bunny hops on FPS games).

I could contend, it would be more game like if it was totally even, because that is then simulating an "ideal" racing environment... this rarely exists in real life .

F1 is the extreme example where the race is won, more often than not off the track, in the teams ongoing development of the car.
Even in classes of race cars where they endevour to maintain an even field it is very rarely even, the V8 Supercars here in Australia is suposed to be even, but the top teams are always trying to get one up on each other (within the rules) and one team is envariably stronger than another for periods of time, until the next breakthrough or rule change

So the fact that there are things there to "exploit", as you say, and the top drivers/teams endevour to find them before others, makes it more closely approximate real life racing than if the field is kept totally even

I am not saying I agree with bug exploits or not, I'm just making a point. I personally would like to see some leagues where the rules are quite specific, and others that are more open (as they mostly are now), gives more variety which only makes it more interesting...

There has been improvement suggestions that would aid this and hopefully we might see some of them implemented at some stage... (i.e. setup restrictions, ballast, server info screens for house rules, etc...)

But in the mean time there is nothing stopping us from setting up servers or races where we all use a type of set (i.e. no locked diff or hybrid tyres on GTi ) and as a condition of racing there, you must pass your set to the moderator to check it is within spec... this would require a moderated server though and there lies the problem.

Also there's nothing stopping people lobbying league organisers to have setup restrictions (just be a pain to organise and enforce) or setting up your own...

Finaly, while you wait for a new patch to fix the glaring bugs that a being exploited, there will be others that are eagerly awaiting a new patch because it will invariably have "new" things to find and exploit.

In my opinion it's not about having a perfect environment, but better managing the environemet you have... which is why I believe some extra features that will enable better management should also be a priority.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Give us and the devs a break and calm down, please. Pretty please. I'll give you all the mints and sweets I have in my pocket.

I'll add mine too, Sue has flooded me with them

I just can't understand how some of you act over there. I really never wanted to bring this to the table, but I'm sorry, I feel that I need to. In Brazil LFS cost 1/3 of the minimum wage here (something around R$100,00, while the minimum wage is R$300,00).

I guess when you put that kind of money in a project that you believe, you become frustrated when people just make it seem normal and just don't care about the development stage, the info we are being given and just say that £24 is a small price for the game. Maybe for you it is. Here things just don't work that way.

And well, I guess you summed it all here: if you can use cheats and exploits, it is no longer a sim. It is only a game. And that's about it.

Quote from keiran :

Scawen said earlier he is fed up with these threads so I highly doubt he will bother responding.

See how contradictory it is?
If Scawen did report once in a while on what he is doing, say every month or so, along the lines of 2 sentences (i.e. "I am working on aero physics ATM, it requires lot of reading but progress is going well. Eric is working on some cars details these days") , maybe in a locked sticky thread where we could find all of those little reports in posting order, he couldn't ever be fed up with these threads because there wouldn't be such threads at all.
And don't tell me it is too hard to write 2 sentences every month when there is no fixed date.

Quote from Falkowski83 :

I just can't understand how some of you act over there. I really never wanted to bring this to the table, but I'm sorry, I feel that I need to. In Brazil LFS cost 1/3 of the minimum wage here (something around R$100,00, while the minimum wage is R$300,00).

I guess when you put that kind of money in a project that you believe, you become frustrated when people just make it seem normal and just don't care about the development stage, the info we are being given and just say that £24 is a small price for the game. Maybe for you it is. Here things just don't work that way.

And well, I guess you summed it all here: if you can use cheats and exploits, it is no longer a sim. It is only a game. And that's about it.

Well, did anyobody forced you to buy anything??? Is devs fault because in Brazil, it is expensive?? NO! Here in Serbia, wages are REALLY low, but i work hard, and buy things that i want, and that are worth it! This 36 euros that i payed for LFS, has payed themselfes off LONG time ago! I had/have such a good time with LFS, something i never experienced with any other game out there! Would you prefer that this is called S2 final??!! Do you wine at other sims forums, how even after years and years of existance, they can't get their cars to behave like CARS?? How their FF is uselles, and how you drive hovercrafts instead of cars? BUT NO... it says FINAL on the expensive BOX that you bought, and it even has a comment of some famous real life driver, like "OMG this is just like the real thing"...
DEVS DON'T OWE YOU ANYTHING, YOU OWE THEM SOME RESPECT, AND PATIENCE BECAUSE THEY GAVE YOU A SIM THAT THE CARS IN IT REALLY BEHAVE LIKE REAL CARS, AND FF IS ACTUALLY USABLE, AND GIVES YOU REAL INFORMATIONS ON WHAT IS GOING ON!
Sorry for the capital letters, but i am really fed up of this comments, "i paid for something that i didn't recieve", you paid the lousy 24 pounds for a great sim, and the updates you will recieve will be, guess what - FREE! We all know these bugs, and yes, it would be a good thing for them to be fixed.. and they WILL BE, but please stop being so CHEAP, because if you observe the LFS stages like FULL games(which you should) then you have two games for 24 pounds/dollars. But no, you are being cheap, and calls them stages, and you say things like, "S3 is really going to be expensive, 36 pounds, i can buy other games for 34 pounds every year and it has a DVD box, and a real life driver comment".. Then buy them, and enjoy the graphical changes that you pay 34 pounds every year!

Boris Lozac, insteald of caps lock use Enter button to make it a little bit easier to read...

Just a month ago I was "a true LFS fan" defending on some forum LFS against few ISI fans (I don't mean RSCnet, it was just one Finnish game forum). Now I'm kinda starting to realize the facts. The fact that this is taking so damn long. I'm hopeful, maybe to hopeful, but my own not too optimistic guess for the patch release is 6 months from today.

And about the tyre physics issue... I came to LFS just after S2 was released but afaik this "driving on ice" effect has been in LFS from the very beginning. Is this really the first time Scawen "admits" the problem with low grip? Why now because the issue is not really a new thing? I guess my hopes for the next patch are too high. What if it does nothing to the low speed grip issue?

Quote from Hyperactive :

Too bad there is nothing good that I could drive while waiting, except the LFS which is still great fun

RBR? Too bad if you're not into rallying.

Quote from Rob76 :

The damage model is good because it models the important bit well (suspension damage) without focusing on the eye candy.

I know but it still lacks so many things - firstly the mechanical failures. I also understand that the damage model isn't even supposed to be finished, afaik it was added to S2 in a hurry because people kept complaining about the ridiculous driving over curbs or something like that.

Quote from Mogar :

I might be wrong, but I thought that I have already seen they asking that kind of thing, at least once.

No

Quote :

But one thing you can't deny, we always had a idea of what was comming on next patch and a estimate date of the release, and usually they surprised us doing more than they said they were going to do on S1 days

Did you? Did you know virtual startlights come? Did you know mrt would come? Did you know skidmarks would come? No, you didnt!

Quote :

Maybe they stopped doing that since the several delays of S2 release. If I'm not wrong, it was promised first to something like last quarter from 2004, and then it was delayed, delayed, until some beta tester leaked one version, and the devs almost had to release a demo to avoid ppl playing a faulty version (the leaked version had some obvious faults, that could make angry ppl even angrier).

It was not promised to be released at a given time, there was one mistake in an interview by victor, who said, it might come b4 xmas

Quote :

But we can't forget that the Devs were much far from what they have expected to released in S2. Damage modeling, new diffs and some other things were planned only to S3. Maybe they didn't plan accordingly, or thought that they could do more than they actually could do.

LOL, no. They know what they do, and they plan. Maybe a lot of us have other ideas, of what could be important, but it's their game, their way to do it, and there is no real way to change that.

Quote :

Anyway, I still think that it's much more "healthy" to LFS to keep the community informed about the developing process. Today, we know almost nothing, that gives margin to some ppl think wrong things, and maybe make ppl angry.

There you might be right. Still, compared to other games, you know way more

Quote :

I think that although there is no way to make everyone happy, the strong supporters (like I was) liked much more the days that we were informed about the developing process, than today, that we know nothing (we just know that someday somehow the devs plan to make a workaround on the aero and tyre bug, and maybe they will make S3, nothing more than this).

wrong. They will never do a workaround, there will be redone aero and tyre physics. And you are informed, what they do. They code. They said it, and now they do it. There were longer times in S1, where you didnt hear anything from them. ATM your latest information is: We are back in coding since end of 05/start of 06. That's 5-6 weeks away. Not a long time imho...

This thread cracks me up people just keep posting their views without even reading the responses properly and taking a moment to consider another point of view a forum is for discusion and that implies at least stopping a moment to listen and understand what others are saying

...man, I'm bored......

Uh I keep reading in posts where so and so game is basically endorsed by a proffessional driver of some sort. There seems to be a nimber of people that seem to think that this actually maensa something as far as how good the game is. C'mon get real. That's called PRODUCT ENDORSEMENT.
It really doesn't mean anything. In fact, I guess from being an American,
when I see something that's endorsed by a celebrity or an athlete, I find it
highly suspect instead of being a positive factor.
Besides, I'm beginning to think that real racing, at the top levels aren't real races. You don't throw that much money around without SOME sort of assurances of a return.
Also, I remember products like the Thighmaster, endorsed by Suzanne Sommers and Greenpeace by Lord knows who actors.....
So an endorsement from a "real" racecar driver would more than likely cause me to ignore whatever title being pimped out.

So sure, LFS need things and I would like to see the bugs fixed yesterday,
but I hope it never sinks to the level of pandering for a professional endorser.

Ok, I'm through spinning wildly off-topic, but that IS what I think.
You may continue the Whining and anti-whining now

Quote :

DEVS DON'T OWE YOU ANYTHING, YOU OWE THEM SOME RESPECT, AND PATIENCE BECAUSE THEY GAVE YOU A SIM THAT THE CARS IN IT REALLY BEHAVE LIKE REAL CARS, AND FF IS ACTUALLY USABLE, AND GIVES YOU REAL INFORMATIONS ON WHAT IS GOING ON!
Sorry for the capital letters, but i am really fed up of this comments, "i paid for something that i didn't recieve", you paid the lousy 24 pounds for a great sim, and the updates you will recieve will be, guess what - FREE! We all know these bugs, and yes, it would be a good thing for them to be fixed.. and they WILL BE, but please stop being so CHEAP, because if you observe the LFS stages like FULL games(which you should) then you have two games for 24 pounds/dollars. But no, you are being cheap, and calls them stages, and you say things like, "S3 is really going to be expensive, 36 pounds, i can buy other games for 34 pounds every year and it has a DVD box, and a real life driver comment".. Then buy them, and enjoy the graphical changes that you pay 34 pounds every year!

Calm down. Breathe. Count from 10 to 1. Breathe.

Now go back to my post:

I guess when you put that kind of money in a project that you believe, you become frustrated when people just make it seem normal and just don't care about the development stage, the info we are being given and just say that £24 is a small price for the game. Maybe for you it is. Here things just don't work that way.

Did I ever mentioned that the devs owed me something? NO. I just said that we, the custumers, become frustrated when we don't hear anything, and when a large amount of time passes without major fixings. OK, you will say about the language pack. I won't even get there, because it has been discussed a lot of times here.

Quote :

Uh I keep reading in posts where so and so game is basically endorsed by a proffessional driver of some sort. There seems to be a nimber of people that seem to think that this actually maensa something as far as how good the game is. C'mon get real. That's called PRODUCT ENDORSEMENT.

If you are talking about some of my posts in this forum, where I stated that a professional driver in Brazil said that GTR represented real life WAY better than LFS, you are dead wrong. This guy is not an endorser. He is a racing sim freak, like us. He KNOWS what racing sims are like, and he KNOWS what a real life racing car is like.

I agree with your post when it comes from endorsers, but when there is a real driver in the community that is a hardcore sim racing fan, and this guy says a lot of things, always explainings the "whys", you just can't argue with that.

Quote from deggis :

RBR? Too bad if you're not into rallying.

I have tried the demo and there is huge steering wheel lag and my pedals work in on/off mode all the time. Driving a sim with steering lag of 0.5 seconds and on/off throttle and brake will not happen . There was a fix done by some one (in bhms...?) but it didn't do nothing.


As someone said earler in this thread that the aergo bug is the same for everyone and as a such it is not an exploit..

Quote from B2B@300 :

I could contend, it would be more game like if it was totally even, because that is then simulating an "ideal" racing environment... this rarely exists in real life .

F1 is the extreme example where the race is won, more often than not off the track, in the teams ongoing development of the car.
Even in classes of race cars where they endevour to maintain an even field it is very rarely even, the V8 Supercars here in Australia is suposed to be even, but the top teams are always trying to get one up on each other (within the rules) and one team is envariably stronger than another for periods of time, until the next breakthrough or rule change

So the fact that there are things there to "exploit", as you say, and the top drivers/teams endevour to find them before others, makes it more closely approximate real life racing than if the field is kept totally even

...
...

Finaly, while you wait for a new patch to fix the glaring bugs that a being exploited, there will be others that are eagerly awaiting a new patch because it will invariably have "new" things to find and exploit.

In my opinion it's not about having a perfect environment, but better managing the environemet you have... which is why I believe some extra features that will enable better management should also be a priority.

F1 races won more off track than on track? Sure in F1 it's extremely important to be in the right team to be able to win but it's still the driver who needs to be extremely good/gifted/lucky to be able to do that. In LFS the only thing to get a benefit over someone else is to have better setup if the drivers are equal. Currently that benefit comes from a physics bugs in aero, tires and locked diffs.

But suggesting that having bugs - exploits available makes LFS closer to real life? No. In terms of not having totally even fields? No. The field is not even because the driver skills vary so much.


Sure it raises thoughts when I read all the stuff posted here. Are they actually doing something. Maybe they are on a break? Maybe there is no progress report because there has been no progress? All I can do is hope for the best, like the majority seem to do.

If you are angry and bored with the seemingly slow development progress, then maybe it's a good time for you to take a break from LFS. Log out from forum, remove all LFS-related bookmarks and try other games, start a hobby or a sport, get a girlfriend or a cat, whatever you fancy. Subscribe to LFS newsletter and you'll get a nice email when something big happens and you won't miss a thing.

Quote from Hyperactive :

I have tried the demo and there is huge steering wheel lag and my pedals work in on/off mode all the time. Driving a sim with steering lag of 0.5 seconds and on/off throttle and brake will not happen . There was a fix done by some one (in bhms...?) but it didn't do nothing.

Some people say RBR doesn't have lag at all. In my opinion it's not as smooth as LFS but if there's a lag it's not anywhere near ISI-type lag. What wheel do you have? I think the problem is in your hardware/drivers.

Do you mean this thread on bhms?

http://www.bhmotorsports.com/b ... 787f10351e5063f3a26bb938c

i did the steering wheel lag fix for rbr a few months ago and the game became much easier.

I have a DFP. and i use the old df pedal as clutch

Quote from Hyperactive :

I have tried the demo and there is huge steering wheel lag and my pedals work in on/off mode all the time. Driving a sim with steering lag of 0.5 seconds and on/off throttle and brake will not happen . There was a fix done by some one (in bhms...?) but it didn't do nothing.

Code:


("Car" ("CAR_ROOT"
InverseMass 0.000714
vecLocalInverseInertiaDiagonal 0.00083 0.00169 0.00083

-----------> MaxFFTorque 135.0

EffWheelRadius 0.315000
AntiRollBarStiffness0 30000
AntiRollBarStiffness1 20000

DangerousAcceleration 1000000.0

SubTics 1
Drive ("Drive"
)



Change MaxFFTorque from 135 to 90 or 80 and the lag will go.


Descompact the physics.rbz with winrar or other. It'll generate a folder, and inside this folder there is a file named physics.lsp. Open this file with notepad and change that value as indicated. Keep the physics folder where it is, and the game will replace the entire physics of the game for the values from physics.lsp file.

I really don't care abouy the cheap $24 paid for LFS.

I really enjoy, and I face this price as a contribution. I'll give more if they ask for.

I just want to know what are they doing.

There is no reason to get bored with this kind of thread. It is just a forum.

We are just writing things here... nothing really matter.

Heh, maybe it's better to hijack this thread and make it an RBR thread

I think that the issues are related to my wheel (Ms sidewinder precision racing wheel) which is pretty old. The steering lag isn't even the biggest problem since the pedals are on/off pedals atm. But it's the demo and I guess RBR is quite cheap nowadays so I'll probably go and buy it soon...

I got a PM from csimpok and he said that the patch for RBR helped a lot, so let the force be with me

...and in shiny armour the RBR came and ate us all...

Quote from Speed Soro :

I really don't care abouy the cheap $24 paid for LFS.

I really enjoy, and I face this price as a contribution. I'll give more if they ask for.

I just want to know what are they doing.

There is no reason to get bored with this kind of thread. It is just a forum.

We are just writing things here... nothing really matter.

:detective

.... Read: someone's been inhaling some smoke of a certain kind....

:drugs: :munching_ :color:

Hmmm, should we split the progress report thread into a RBR progress report thread?

Vain

P.S.: I also ordered RBR some days ago.

I'm wanting to buy an S2 license, but with all this hassle over a progress report that should have been posted a long while ago, I'm starting to have my doubts. After reading all this I think I better wait for a patch to be sure the game is still around. I know I should not say this, but I have the crack, but I don't use it, because I can't go online with it, now I want to buy the game (so yes, there are people that use cracks to test the whole game and buy it afterwards, surprise ).

What should I do? Buy a license as soon as I get the money (and being able to login to the bookmakers, I failed that last time I tried, the site couldn't handle my registration) or should I wait for some security (a progress report)? One thing is for sure, I'm not using the crack any longer, I'm tired of racing slow AI, and I'm also tired of racing myself.

*To everyone using a crack: get the demo, you don't know what you're missing!

Please don't ban me for being honest

.... Tristan is comming to get you

Indeed you must cease and desist using the crack... But you said you already did that soo.

YES you should buy LFS, because there WILL be updates and whatnot, there is no question about the future, so "security" is a non-issue. Even in it's current state it's a blast, and the best is yet to come so it's worth every penny and more IMHO

yeah. people just get really whiney once in a while. but the patches always come eventually. we will not be forsaken.