I hope i dont come across as some complete newb here (no offence meant to the new guys), ive been using race sims for several years now.

watching other people drive, they always seem to be able to brake much, much later.

usually i aim for the 100m marker, it does vary on what car you are using..... but some manage much later..........does it help if you keep a bit of throttle on? is it caines (spelling?) breaking....or some other technique?

im using an older MS sidewinder wheel (game port) and there isnt any software with it to make any adjustments.

i really enjoy the racing, but trying to leave the braking that little bit later usually means a very frustrating lockup into the kitty litter!

any advice will be most gratefully accepted!

You mean cadence braking - it is a useful technique to know if your wheels lock - it's manual ABS effectively.

At the moment the late brakers use the gears (and engine braking) to slow down much faster, running brake balances that would be unstable without the addition of engine braking.

But also bear in mind that braking really late and only just managing to slow down enough for the corner might be A LOT slower than braking 10m earlier, maintaining a better line, better balance and ultimately giving you a higher corner exit speed. If your lap times are okay don't worry about people who brake later than you unless they are faster. Remember, they also probably trail brake - i.e. the continue to apply partial braking deep into the corner. This allows them, in some cases, to start braking a little later, but not by much.

How much later is everyone braking on average?

Hm, it's very hard to judge from your discription what you may be doing wrong. Perhaps you want to show some replays of you driving something like... Westhill Reversed, T1 and the turn after the backstraight should be good examples.

Vain

At the moment I can only race Blackwood, so I can tell you about T1. A lot of new guys brake at the 100 marker, while more advanced people brake at 75 or even a little later. Like they already explained, just downshift earlier. Usually when I just passed the 100 marker, I first shift down, and then brake hard and start to steer into the turn, it goes pretty fast this way. Also, when you have a setup that puts too much braking power on the wheels, you'll block, but that's obvious

thats how youre taught to drive on the roads but racing is a rewrite of the text books things on braking in corners etc, i learnt that from wiki trail braking shifts the weight of the car onto the front wheels under braking so braking into a corner can actually give more grip, but you dont do it on real roads cos its risky.

its like real racing, if you drive hard you shred your tyres and have more chances or wrecking, but if you drive with carefulness in mind you may find you will be stronger toward the end of a race.

often i let those guys who brake super late or are overtaking me take their line but i make sure my "follow up" or counterstrike manouver is already in place often stealing the place right back if the person over cooks the overtake, do this by knowing their tyres are slipping so break early keep all your grip and guarantee that you can pull out of that corner quicker than him and youll make his efforts pointless

I think one thing you might find is that people who brake later and are faster will also have a higher overall corner speed than you will (so they don't need to brake as much). They will also get down to their corner speed right at the apex and then almost immediately start accelerating again. This skill only comes with practice.
One way to get this done is to turn in a lot sooner than most new racers do. Most new drivers will brake, let off the brakes, turn in, try to apex, and then accelerate. With practice you should be able to max brake, turn-in while reducing brake pressure, apex while letting off that little bit of brake that is left in, then accelerate out.
The problem with the first method is that you will be too deep in the corner to apex properly without tightening the radius too much, and you end up understeering through the corner at a much slower speed. Turning in sooner allows you to get the nose of the car pointed where you need it to be sooner, which allows you to get on the gas sooner.
The downshifting does help stabilize the car and allows you to apply a little bit of throttle through longer corners to stabilize the rear of the car (assuming a loose setup). But downshifting can cause problems if you lock up the rear wheels at the same time.

Practice trail-braking whenever you can, it is a valuable skill. Mostly because of the stabilizing effect it can have on the car, not because of where your brake point is. It allows you to apex better and get on the gas sooner, which is the key to good lap times.

Threshold braking, trail braking, cadence braking etc, all have their place in a motor race. All techniques should be mastered really. Braking is an intellectual part of racing and many take it for granted. Try to actually concentrate and be aware of how you are braking. Depending on the race situation and your track position, choose the right tool for the job.

Use the physics a bit too. A car does it's braking with the front two wheels. The more weight on the the front wheels the more braking ability before the wheels lock. Try raising the front suspension to give you more travel and loosening the front bump settings. That gives the effect of more weight transfer to the front under braking, allowing you to raise the braking power somewhat . . .

Lowering front tyre pressure generates a higher contact patch, the more rubber on the road the more braking ability. But be careful, lower the front pressures more than the rear and you could find your swapping ends more often than not making the advantage moot.

Check your camber as well, when suspension is under compression it increases the camber on the wheels, to much and you loose contact, too little and you will loose cornering ability.

All the above post are equally valid, just try a few different things out and practice practice practice . . .

And turn off (options, player) auto blip when downshifting. It gives more control when braking.

Though I don't know if people new to LFS usually turn that off automatically but I turned it off just some days ago.

ps. And at the same time you might want to turn off throttle auto cut. Because LFS doesn't simulate engine damage "at all" it's just faster to floor the throttle when upshifting. Altought at longer races you might get so called pop-corn effect on turbo cars when flooring the throttle.

Quote from deggis :

And turn off (options, player) auto blip when downshifting. It gives more control when braking.

Though I don't know if people new to LFS usually turn that off automatically but I turned it off just some days ago.

I'm not sure many people, new or veteran, actually do turn this off. I know I don't, but I still manually blip it when I use the engine to brake.

Incidentally, not long ago, I actually stopped using the engine to brake. Instead, I increased the braking force much higher than I used previously, and trained myself not to floor the brake pedal, but learn to use only 70-80% pedal and find the point where they will lock. Then usually I lesiurly downshift when the rpm's drop down. At least I do this now in RWD's. FWD's I still give the throttle a big blip when downshifting and use engine braking

In the end its all a ballancing act. You tires have a finite amount of grip to use for braking, cornering and accelerating. Personaly I brake a little early, and smoothly transision to my indended line.

I also toss the car in to the corners a bit to step out the back ever so slightly thus scrubbing off even more speed at the expence of tire heat and wear. This does have an additional advantage of pointing my nose deeper in to the corner and allows me to get back on the gas earlier or harder then a more traditional line.

Every corner is different, every car is different. You just have to find what works for you and run with it. The more at ease with a line or technique you are the more confident you are and you will find yourself pushing the limits. Tiny changes in Line, Set or Technique can have dramatic changes on lap times. The saying you have to slow down to go faster is not false.

Smoothness will lead to consistancy, consistancy will lead to confidence, consistance will lead to faster time. So be smooth, be consistant, speed will come in places you least expect.

Quote from mrodgers :

Incidentally, not long ago, I actually stopped using the engine to brake. Instead, I increased the braking force much higher than I used previously, and trained myself not to floor the brake pedal,

Oh do have the luxury of A pedal . . . I wonder if I can make my own. . . .

I always set the brake force to be slightly higher than the force required
to lock the wheels at moderate to high speed. This is mostly because of
the controller i use, a PSX gamepad, which does not give me the precision
and control of proper pedals. I like to be able to fully brake without locking
up at high speeds.

That said, some people can manage more brake force since they can more
easily reduce brake force as the wheels lockup. This allows them to brake
a bit later but with slightly more initial force.

Thankyou all for your comments and advice.

much appreciated.

Remember also that out of the three primary elements that constitute a fast lap (correct line, corner exit speed, braking) braking is the area which makes and loses the least amount of time.

This obviously doesn't mean that it is isn't important. But for example, if you are threshold braking at the very latest moment, and right on the very limit, you leave yourself very little margin for error, both in the chance that you might lock up, or that you might overshoot your turn in point. The possible loss in time is not worth the risk if you're not totally confident in your braking.

Braking slightly earlier, and slightly under maximum threshold will not lose you much time in comparison. Consistency is more important, and is what will win races. The Skip Barber book I have explains this is much greater detail. Of course if you're going for WR, or pushing to the limit to qualify etc. you will of course want to push yourself to the max in all areas.

Also note that there is a bug in the current version of LFS, where you lock the inside front tyre only, you don't hear it squeek. Only when both are locked do you hear noise. This leads to many flatspots if you don't do your 'near limit braking' in a straight line.

You don't hear the rear tires locking up in a straight line either, even when they're both locked up... Only the difference in handling (or F9) tells you that you left a fair bit of your tire on the tarmac...