The first and more important law is the Italian Consitution, which explicitly forbids the reconstruction of the Fascist Party.

The other law, which is seldom applied, regards the apology of fascism, which is extremely difficult to prove. It has severe consequences but there are ongoing discussions.

Let's say that Mosley wouldn't risk anything entering Italy after what he's done because no one would even bother accusing him of apology of fascism and a prosecutor trying to bring him under trial basing his evidence on the clip would be probably laughed at and rightly accused of trying to become famous with a non-existent, high profile case and subsequently transferred or demoted.

I come from a family with a long standing militant antifascist tradition, but before grilling someone because he's a supposed fascist I need hard evidence, because - ironically - I'm not a fascist, and I can't apply their methods.

What I currently find ironic is how Hamilton stepped up talking about role models when just last week he was fined for violating the speed limit by over 60 km/h in France last December. I guess daddy Anthony didn't put much thought in his son's statement once more.

Quote from nihil :

So far, the only problem I can see is that something private has been made public. Sometimes such forced 'outings' are necessary and have a positive impact on the world in general, but I'm not sure that's the case here.

On that subject, this was not actually private. Given that it is a brothel, and therefore a workplace, and that it is generally accepted that many companies in the UK use cameras to spy on their workforce, there may not actually be a breach of law here either. At least not one that would stand the test of prosecution. Particularly if the action was brought by a person who was, at the time he was being recorded, actually being caught in the act of illegally seeking the services of prostitutes.. I think his case would be tentative at best.

All of that aside, I don't much care about the implied or enacted Naziism.. this seems to be a fairly common sexual fantasy among rich whackos.. or the fact that he rents prostitutes. The fact is that the fall-out makes Mosley's position as president of the FIA untenable. So, good result all round, I'd say.

I'm quite disgusted by his comments about Mercedes and BMW, though. You would think that the son of Britain's former Fascist leader would have a better grip on European social history. He deserves to rot just for those comments alone. What a horrible man.

Quote from SamH :

Particularly if the action was brought by a person who was, at the time he was being recorded, actually being caught in the act of illegally seeking the services of prostitutes.. I think his case would be tentative at best.

AFAIK prostitution is legal but kerb crawling isn't so Mosley hasn't done anything illegal.

SamH, I don't know English laws, but I think your reasoning wouldn't work in a court, especially if you consider the technical aspects of the clip. You can clearly see that moving hidden cameras were used and the operator must be a hooker. Everything points to the fact that the stunt was clearly staged and carefully crafted by someone interested in filming the unknowing Mosley, who didn't give any kind of consent.

(Edit: I forgot to say, didn't you notice that the video is being removed from everywhere, including News of the World? Doesn't that ring another bell on privacy issues and potential outcomes of a lawsuit?)

Do laws actually consent such violations of privacy in the UK? If it's so, you're screwed.

His position may be untenable, but anyone interested in individual freedoms (and you should be one of them, I think) should heavily protest the way in which the fact has been rendered public when these facts have absolutely no relationship with his public figure, except for the alleged nazi stuff. It's not only Mosley's freedom: it is my freedom, your freedom to get in bed with whom you like (without committing hideous crimes) without anyone asking anything. My personal dislike for someone isn't enough to make me override such an important principle, for me.

As for the BMW and Mercedes statements, their criminalisation (and I include Toyota and Honda) is much more disgusting to me. Mosley appears to me like a victim of bigotry and political calculus, nothing more.

Quote from ajp71 :

AFAIK prostitution is legal

Nah it isn't. Prostitutes are rarely prosecuted - the police prefer to target their customers - but prostitution is still illegal. It would no doubt be safer if it wasn't, though.

Quote from Albieg :

Everything points to the fact that the stunt was clearly staged and carefully crafted by someone interested in filming the unknowing Mosley, who didn't give any kind of consent.

The Sunday rags in the UK make their money out of sleazy garbage like this and they've been doing it for decades. I can only assume that it pays out enough to cover court costs and judgements against them.

Quote from Albieg :

Mosley appears to me like a victim of bigotry and political calculus, nothing more.

They went after Mosley because he went after the press. He threatened the Sunday Times last year with legal action over Martin Brundle's column, where he expressed his opinion that McLaren's castigation for the "spy scandal" was a scapegoating, that the fine was disproportionate, and he implied that the FIA was less than impartial in its rulings.

Both the Sunday Times and the News of the World are owned by Rupert Murdoch.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

Nah it isn't. Prostitutes are rarely prosecuted - the police prefer to target their customers - but prostitution is still illegal. It would no doubt be safer if it wasn't, though.

Prostitution itself is legal so as long as Mosley paid the girls directly and didn't contact a pimp he probably didn't break the law, although I think it's still not wise to get all high and mighty over a breach of privacy when you're using prostitutes.

Quote :

In many jurisdictions, the act of obtaining money for sex is not illegal, but many of the activities surrounding it are illegal. For example, in England and Wales, Scotland, Rhode Island, Canada, Bulgaria, Brazil, Denmark and Costa Rica, amongst others, activities such as solicitation, pimping and owning or running a brothel are illegal.

Quote from ajp71 :

I think it's still not wise to get all high and mighty over a breach of privacy when you're using prostitutes.

I concur! Burn him!!

Quote from ajp71 :

Prostitution itself is legal so as long as Mosley paid the girls directly and didn't contact a pimp

Before someone goes and contests this, http://www.sw5.info/law.htm

I though this was an April fools joke, but they were talking about it during practice and was astounded that it's real. I would prefer he resign but then who would take over?

If it's Bernie I want Mosley to stay.

Quote from Rappa Z :

If it's Bernie I want Mosley to stay.

Probably Todt, and I'd prefer Mosley to Todt too.

Quote from Albieg :

As for the BMW and Mercedes statements, their criminalisation (and I include Toyota and Honda) is much more disgusting to me. Mosley appears to me like a victim of bigotry and political calculus, nothing more.

What goes around comes around I guess, Max isn't exactly a politically free animal himself, and he did really pissed off a lot of people in the pass. I guess Paul Stoddart is probably laughing very hard right now.

Quote from Albieg :

SamH, I don't know English laws, but I think your reasoning wouldn't work in a court

Probably not. Mosley is a bully and a bigot. It seems to run in the family. I perceive this episode as social justice in large part, and having completely lost faith in our legal system over the last few years, I'm finding myself more and more willing to accept social justice in its place until it gets its act together.

As for human rights, Britain has long-since disassociated itself from Europe on that score (part of the reason why I'm so disillusioned with the justice system) and privacy protection laws, such as they are, are significantly diminished here to the point of being moot. The police can pretty well legally point a camera up your ass, anyone else can too.

Social justice? Your idea of social justice and how to obtain it is pretty scary, to be honest.

For more than a reason it reminds more the aberrations of the jail system, where paedophiles are beaten and treated badly by the other inmates. But that's not a form of justice if you ever talked to an intelligent former prisoner: as a friend of mine said, "it's a form of vengeance masqueraded as spontaneous justice that develops between people who are considered shit, and then you turn against someone who is considered more shit than you. It's not justice, even when they call it so, it's the reproposition of the outer social system inside the prisons: I am shit but paedophiles are more shit than me, so I beat them, and everyone - including guards - turn their heads the other way."

I hope you understand that's not a form a justice, but if this is your idea I guess you're fine with what happened to Mosley. Luckily my disillusions don't allow me to consider such aberrations a form of justice.

Nahh I'm just not communicating very well this morning I was making an obtuse reference to the progressive failure of the British justice system and the void that it leaves, far more than I was advocating social justice. I don't advocate social justice as you describe it, but I retain the right to be less than unhappy that Mosley is under pressure to resign his position at the FIA. I don't like him, for a multitude of reasons - him as a person and because of the perverse mess that the FIA is, at least in part, because of him.

Well, what you think about FIA, I think about all the F1 circus. We've had enough proof last year. But that doesn't make me willing to accept such methods or even to be happy about their outcomes because of my personal likes and dislikes. For me there's more at stake than Mosley, and if I have to defend what I consider important I also have to defend Mosley as a victim of an ugly system he's part of. I see no justice, neither social nor poetical, in what happened to him.
As for the happiness part, being happy for something presumably positive obtained with such methods would be like being happy because peace was obtained exterminating your enemies with an H bomb, to use a hyperbolic comparison. That would never make me happy, or relieved. Noble ends, noble means, and that's not idealism, just coherence.

I don't find Mosley's behaviour defensible at all. If you want to defend him, go ahead.

I'm already doing it for reasons that go well beyond defending Mosley personally and although I shouldn't say such a thing about myself, I think I'm doing pretty well. My aim isn't that of defending Mosley but to have a better overall understanding, and this should be clear also to you. If you want to be happy about the outcome of methods you seem to despise, go ahead. You know what you're sacrificing, and I know too. That's why I refuse those methods.

Without a whole bunch of "given that.." and "presupposing such a condition..", there's no defence of Mosley in my opinion. You can blah all day but if the net result is supporting Mosley's behaviour then I'm just gonna finish up glazing over. Sorry. I suspect my position is going to be similar to the F1 sponsors, who don't just have an opinion resting on this, they have millions of €.

The real loser in this, if Mosley sits high, is going to be the F1 fan. Four teams have already assessed the situation and determined to make urgent statements distancing themselves from Mosley to protect from sponsorship ramifications. But if the whole thing collapses in on itself, because the FIA won't shed Mosley, then that's just going to be another example of Darwinism in action IMO.

Quote from SamH :

I suspect my position is going to be similar to the F1 sponsors

That says it all, for me. Keep your millions of Euros if you have them (like the sponsors do), I don't have them. I'll keep what I have, and - believe it or not - it's more important than millions of Euros.

Is this some kind of moral high horse you're riding? If so, check for burrs. I don't think you can claim the moral high ground, defending the long-married, whore-shagging Mr Mosley.

Quote from SamH :

Is this some kind of moral high horse you're riding?

Yes, it is. But I'm not defending Mosley's morals, although you seem to believe it's so. It should be pretty clear if you read the whole thread. I'm defending my morals, and what I'm willing to do to achieve a result. Intruding in the sexual life of someone who isn't a pedophile or sexual predator isn't part of what I'm willing to do, this is something that regards only Mosley and his family. Conversely, avoiding such intrusions regards myself, not Mosley.

Quote from Albieg :

Yes, it is.

Okay. Doesn't cut it for me, sorry.

At least you know that I'm not willing to crawl into your bed to attack you for different reasons. I can't say the same for you judging from your words. You give no guarantee. Sorry.