@Bawbag - By a full throttle start I mean holding the car on the clutch then dumping it sending you off in a flurry of wheel spin before the auto-clutch has time to start burning it up for you.

Quote from nihil :

I think that some of the blame for any kind of misunderstanding in the userbase has to be dumped at the door of LFS' piecemeal development. AFAIK LFS' design policy has always put a premium on physical modeling (ie. no canned effects for ffb etc), which means that everything simulated ultimately has a connection to everything else (within the simulation).

What's your point the clutch is a device that connects the gearbox and engine together. Damage to the clutch is only possible by miss using both devices it is connected to at the same time. If you feel the clutch is independent of everything else in LFS then no wonder you're burning them up all the time.

Quote :

The clutch model (with its 'power bar' etc) smacks of a game element that has been added in haste to appease some of the more vocal forum members who have been whining about the 'paddle shifter'/no lift advantage for a while now. Is it really any coincidence that it was introduced relatively soon after people began proclaiming the G25 faith?

The G25 has sparked wider clutch pedal ownership, although still isn't the only viable or cheapest method of entry. The power bar itself is a horribly arcadey feature in the same way the tire temps and suspension damage are. I'd really like to see them all removed but it'll only increase whining.

Quote :

I like the LFS design philosophy but surely the damage and wear should be a logical consequence of the engine model, not something tacked on like a ricer's aerofoil.

The clutch is an independent component that can be mated to a different engine and gearbox if you want it to. It acts separately, you nearly always know pretty much instantly using a bit of common sense whether you've got a drivetrain, engine or clutch issue. Trying to make it sound minor is silly, both of our cars have spent multiple races sitting out with clutch issues over the years and both have been push started by yours truly and raced with seized clutches. In contrast we've only had less engine related retirements on both cars, only ever bent valves from over revving/missing shifts on the CVH and a weird ECU issues.

Quote from nihil :

AFAIK LFS' design policy has always put a premium on physical modeling (ie. no canned effects for ffb etc), which means that everything simulated ultimately has a connection to everything else (within the simulation).

True so far. Or that's what they strive for at least.

Quote from nihil :

The clutch model (with its 'power bar' etc) smacks of a game element that has been added in haste to appease some of the more vocal forum members who have been whining about the 'paddle shifter'/no lift advantage for a while now. Is it really any coincidence that it was introduced relatively soon after people began proclaiming the G25 faith?

This however is not. If it was something that everyone was complaining about then I'd concede the point. If driving normally burned the clutch in a couple of laps then yes there would be an issue with the engine itself. The fact that hundreds of people do thousands of races every day and still manage near- WR times regularly means that the vast majority of people have no problem with the clutch heating system. And not all of them use a G25. I never did. My wheel was a cheapo R440 and I never burnt the clutch in a race. Ever. And I suck at LFS!

On the subject of the "power bar" as you called it - it's just a temperature guage. Thermometers IRL have a bar that goes up and down when temperature changes too. Just because this one's orange doesn't mean it's not exactly the same.

Quote from ajp71 :

If you feel the clutch is independent of everything else in LFS then no wonder you're burning them up all the time.

Just the sort of shitty attitude that has me coming here less and less frequently. Where did I say that I was burning up the clutch?

Quote from nihil :

Just the sort of shitty attitude that has me coming here less and less frequently. Where did I say that I was burning up the clutch?

Sorry probably bad use of English, I was trying to use 'you' as anybody not you in particular. Maybe if I had said:

'If someone feels the clutch is independent of everything else in LFS then no wonder they're burning them up all the time.'

You wouldn't be offended which was my point, saying the clutch isn't a logical part of putting the power to the road is just daft, it is an important part of the connection from the engine to the road and if people don't consider it to be part of the logical sequence of components that achieve this (and that can go wrong if used incorrectly) then they're going to have problems in a sim or reality. I'm sure IRL you'd never do any of these things to your road clutches because you can get a better sense of what seems right and wrong, in the same way you're far less likely to not notice you've got a wheel locked up IRL.

Here is a SPR of me doing 5 quick (ish) laps at BL1, along with the Nilex set (FROM INFERNO!!!!)

Not exactly massive quick...average of 1.35.xx per lap, but there are wheelspins, missed gear changes, over revving...loads of "BAD" stuff....but just have a peek at the clutch temp as I cross the finish line..

Soro...why not try crossing your legs and speaking out of your mouth for a change?

Quote from Dajmin :

On the subject of the "power bar" as you called it - it's just a temperature guage. Thermometers IRL have a bar that goes up and down when temperature changes too. Just because this one's orange doesn't mean it's not exactly the same.

Doesn't that bar also show wear? The orange part is how much wear and tear it has (never goes down for me) when it goes red it means its so hot its slipping, this can be turned back to orange with careful drving.

The clutch may wear/overheat a bit quick when people abuse it, but normal racing conditions it just doesn't happen. I'm a crappy racer, using autoclutch and I can't get it to overheat in a normal race.

no

Just a quick "PS" to my post above..can anybody please tell me where I am losing so much time...my pb at BL1 is 1:35.07... a good 1.5 secs off the pace..I just cant work out where exactly I can improve.

Thx

Quote from fragile_dog :

Doesn't that bar also show wear? The orange part is how much wear and tear it has (never goes down for me) when it goes red it means its so hot its slipping, this can be turned back to orange with careful drving.

The clutch may wear/overheat a bit quick when people abuse it, but normal racing conditions it just doesn't happen. I'm a crappy racer, using autoclutch and I can't get it to overheat in a normal race.

There is no clutch wear (yet) in LFS.

so what is that bar then? and how does it work exactly? It can change to red no matter how far along the bar it is, and you can change it back to orange if you race normally, but ive not had it go down in size.

It's Clutch TEMP - Red is the heat at which it will slip.

Auto Clutch on, and then pull away (from a stop) in top gear. You'll be at red in no time.

It's just a temperature bar, and yes also when orange it will become smaller with time. The bar turning red happens on an arbitrary threshold value indicating that the clutch grip is now really bad, though the clutch bite also already degrades while it's still orange.

Quote from Bladerunner :

Just a quick "PS" to my post above..can anybody please tell me where I am losing so much time...my pb at BL1 is 1:35.07... a good 1.5 secs off the pace..I just cant work out where exactly I can improve.

Thx

I'm not that fast round that combo, but in the demo days I must have driven at least 1000 laps so here goes:

IMO, you have a very relaxed driving style. U need to be much more aggressive on turn-in. For example at Turn 1, theres a huge gap between you finishing braking and then hitting the apex. Try and finish braking literally as you turn into the apex.

For the s-bend (Turns 4 and 5) you can be really aggressive with the kerbs - you can gain lots of time there.

Same as turn 1 for the next corner. The final corner is fine.

Your driving style is execptionally smooth, but you need to be more aggressive using kerbs and under braking.

Pretty much a non-discussion imo as there are people able to finish longer races without any real problems. Thus it points to flaws in your drivingstyle.
It would be another matter if no one was able to finish a long race without overheating the clutch or nursing it so u end up going 3seconds slower a lap..which isn't the case.

Quote from fragile_dog :

so what is that bar then? and how does it work exactly? It can change to red no matter how far along the bar it is, and you can change it back to orange if you race normally, but ive not had it go down in size.

The higher the difference between clutch temperature and ambient temperature, the faster it cools down... So you'd see it, you just didn't wait long enough or abused it further, producing heat again...

No I didn't wait long enough, as soon as it went from red to orange I thought all was good, since I thought the orange bar was wear.
So what is the point in it turning red?

It just changes colour to help you interpret how bad the clutch heat is.

but that doesn't make sense, surly it would move up the bar if the clutch heat was that bad. Being a temp gauge and all.

Seriously, what is so hard to understand about that? It's a temperature gauge that moves from left to right, and at a certain heat turns red to inform the user that the clutch is in a quite bad shape now and to ease off a bit.

But it can turn red at any point along the bar, you can have the bar nearly full whilst still being orange, or less then a 1/4 full whilst being red. Doesn't seem to be anything that links the two.
Its not a problem cause like others had said, to over heat the clutch thats what you have to be aiming for.

Please show me a case where it's almost full but still orange (you're not confusing this with the suspension damage bars, are you?) The clutches have different heat resistance depending on the car, but none of them go right up to the top. Most turn red at 1/5 to 1/4 of the bar filled.

It doesn't make sense that the bargraph is just a temperature display, cause if so it could be just a rectangle (or a square or any other shape) with color variations.

It increases its lenght and changes its colour, so it just can indicates the wear, while the colour indicates the temperature rising (which is very very easy to rise up and very difficult to fall down).

Or it was made for daltonic people or monochromatic screens?

For something that should indicates something based in colours, it could start blue, not orange, I don't know...

Quote from Speed Soro :

(which is very very easy to rise up and very difficult to fall down).

Inspired by bladerunner, I took that Nilex XFG set to Blackwood, started with full gas, flatshifted for 5 laps lifting the gas only when braking, even made a full throttle pit stop but couldn't heat it to red (even though it slipped a little bit after 10 minutes of brutal abuse).

Of course it's very very easy to heat up if you try it, you can really do it in 5 or 10 seconds. But you have to be a complete retard to accidentally fry it during a race. And now after that experiment I'm even more certain that it shouldn't cool down if it's red!

Quote from Speed Soro :

It doesn't make sense that the bargraph is just a temperature display, cause if so it could be just a rectangle (or a square or any other shape) with color variations.

You sure do whine alot.

Did you finally realise that you actually were using the clutch wrong and now to save face you start to whine about the gauge?

The gauge is there to show the state of your clutch.

• Only a bit of orange. = Fine keep on racing.
  
• Lots of orange. = You might want to be a bit more sensitive.
  
• Some red. = You are in trouble ease off.
  
• Full red. = Now you done it. Learn to use the clutch properly.

It's very informative and accurately shows the state of your clutch. Who gives a fetid dingo's kidneys what the actual measurement is.

Why aren't you, Soro, attacking the suspension damage gauges? They too only give information about how badly the suspension is damaged. The display doesn't say how the suspension arm is bent or in which direction. It just shows there is damage. Just like for the clutch.

Quote from Speed Soro :

It doesn't make sense that the bargraph is just a temperature display, cause if so it could be just a rectangle (or a square or any other shape) with color variations.

The colour change is used instead of having a redline zone like you have in the RPM gauge. IRL I've seen such representation in some fancy digital VUmeters - when the signal goes out of bounds all the LEDs (or the backlit LCD display) change colour to red or yellow. It's sort of an instant visual cue that there's something amiss while still informing you generally of the signal level.