I wanted to clear this up once and for all..
Are we on the right track with the "R" tires? Do they heat/wear way too much too fast?
The fact is that a lot of people are having problems with XFR, me included. The setups me and my team mates are using were created by the two of our teamates who race/raced in RL, so they're not totally unrealistic.
The fact is that tires get burned up after a couple laps, even when we put R4's.
What's the problem here, the setups, the driving style, the XFR itself, or the tires?
I've heard in couple of other threads that people have no problem with XFR, they can drive with R2's 20 laps around South city.. can i please have a replay of that. Are those 20 laps 3, 4 seconds slower then WR, or are those fast laps?
My view on this is that people are driving way too agressively, throttling in ON/OFF regime, instead of gently aplying the throttle like in real life...
So, can we clear this up please, is there any way i can get a replay with the XFR using R3 tires for example and lasting for 15, 20 laps?
It seems that no one else is having these problems, or the XFR is not so popular, or no one dares to say something against the tires, i don't know...

Hard to tell without replays and sets.

Do the sets have locked diffs?

Quote from March Hare :

Hard to tell without replays and sets.

Will post some replay when i get home..

@ Danowat

Yep, the sets use locked diffs.
I would really really apreciate if i can get a set which can do more than 15, 20 laps with R3's, or a replay showing that..

Use clutchpack LSD, (or viscous), and less steering lock. Less camber so that the fronts wont brake on only the innermost part of the tyres, so they wont lock up, so they dont heat immensly.

On the XFR cooking a tyre can be as simple as locking in one corner: You lock, overheat the tyre. Then you accelerate out of the corner, and the tyre which is too hot already starts slipping, heating even more. Then next turn, it is still very slippery so it locks even mor easily, which heats it up even more, which makes it more slippery ... until you can fry an egg on it.

Quote from Boris Lozac :

My view on this is that people are driving way too agressively, throttling in ON/OFF regime, instead of gently aplying the throttle like in real life...

I'd agree with that, I recall seeing bawbag in the fxo driving consistently fast laps in a league race at SO with little problem with his tyres while others in the same race ended up poping a tyre due to overheating. I remember some people asking how he did it and if it was his set. His answer was that it was in the driving not the set.

As the saying goes - to be the fastest you have to be the one closest to losing control while remaining in control.

In LFS we don't have fear about going over the limit so often in our attempts to try and emulate wr pace are in reality going over the limit marginaly thus losing time and also causing excessive tyre heat wear.

Well the UFR has no problem with tyres, it's allways been that way but both cars had to use the same compound of tyre because they both couldn't use R2s and the R3's were just about perfect.

Now the UFRs R3's heat up a bit more and the XFR has to dip into the R4's which has kinda split up the two cars in terms of pace during a race.

Bawbag, have you got some bug type things imbeded in the forum so whenever someone types your name you suddenly appear or what

I must admit this is something that is troubling me too. Not specifically on the XFR but in LFS in general. Generally speaking the fast guys are sliding about quite a bit, and pretty ragged, yet are constantly setting the fastest lap times. Surely all that sliding would slow them down in real life?? Why is it that I've never sat "in car" with a fast guy and seen very smooth lines with no steering wheel twitches and tyre squeels? Everyone that I see driving like that is usually a couple of seconds off the pace.

Which begs the question (and maybe someone who race for real can answer this).

Do guys in real races drive quite a way within the limits of the cars real pace to ensure their tyres will last the 10-15 laps to the next pit stop?

Or is it just because most LFS races are 7-10 laps (or less even) that the races can be won, (and WRs set) driving in this ragged way?

Or is it because LFS tyre/grip model is still immature and not enough of a time penalty is incurred from actually sliding/spinning, (and im talking purely about the slides themselves not the indirect effect of heat on the grip levels caused by sliding), and all the loss of line and scrubbing of speed that would be incurred in reality from driving like that.

I have to admit I'm tending towards the last opinion.

In LFS there is no lateral and only slight longitudinal grip dropoff on spinning/sliding the tyres, which, while definitely more realistic than the funny curves often seen in ISI engine based games/mods, might not be a 100% accurate representation of real tyre behaviour on tarmac either. Full throttle launches being on average far better than trying to modulate is a good example of that.

So in terms of tyre grip there is currently no significant penalty for going over the limit/ideal point, though it's obviously very hard to tell how big this penalty should be. The accuracy of the load sensitivity modelling and force combining is also to be questioned, at least from discussions with more knowledgeable people than me it seems that they're not 100% correct. The setups being nearly fully adjustable doesn't help hiding these shortcomings, either.

Also keep in mind that (afaik) most if not all tyre grip, wear and heating rates are completely made up to fit a certain role or scheme, rather than using actual real life data. Looking at the raw base data, LFS is basically lots of fantasy values producing a very lifelike response, at least on the fantasy cars. On the real cars, the lack of this data somewhat bites LFS in the ass, though.

Quote from gezmoor :

I must admit this is something that is troubling me too. Not specifically on the XFR but in LFS in general. Generally speaking the fast guys are sliding about quite a bit, and pretty ragged, yet are constantly setting the fastest lap times. Surely all that sliding would slow them down in real life?? Why is it that I've never sat "in car" with a fast guy and seen very smooth lines with no steering wheel twitches and tyre squeels? Everyone that I see driving like that is usually a couple of seconds off the pace.

Which begs the question (and maybe someone who race for real can answer this).

Do guys in real races drive quite a way within the limits of the cars real pace to ensure their tyres will last the 10-15 laps to the next pit stop?

Or is it just because most LFS races are 7-10 laps (or less even) that the races can be won, (and WRs set) driving in this ragged way?

Or is it because LFS tyre/grip model is still immature and not enough of a time penalty is incurred from actually sliding/spinning, (and im talking purely about the slides themselves not the indirect effect of heat on the grip levels caused by sliding), and all the loss of line and scrubbing of speed that would be incurred in reality from driving like that.

I have to admit I'm tending towards the last opinion.

I think you've been fooled by the overdone aural and visual feedback of LfS (to compensate for the lack of G-forces) that people are driving constantly over the limit... The only car I've noticed to be constantly overdriven is the BF1, where you have to basically powerslide round every corner to be fast, only to be reigned in by the traction control...

The biggest issue with the tires is the way they heat up and the way you need to drive to be fast.

In LFS it is very easy to drive in small slide, keeping the car in its optimum 5 (...or so) degree yaw angle without being afraid of understeer, or losing control. So most of the time you are sliding the car to keep it on the limit and it is quite easy to go little over the line sometimes. LFS' tires also take a lot of their heat from sliding instead of tire deformation which speeds up the heating a lot. Add to that the fact that LFS tires lose a lot of grip when they heat up above the best temperatures and it is somewhat vicious circle.

The full throttle start is a prime example of this behaviour. Another examples are the FZ50 and RAC. Both slide a lot and thus generate lot of heat. The constant sliding makes them twitchy, and while enjoyable rides, a bit challenging for the wrong reasons.

It is not as bad as it sounds, not even close but it's something that needs to be checked before S2 final imho

Quote from Glenn67 :

Bawbag, have you got some bug type things imbeded in the forum so whenever someone types your name you suddenly appear or what

Actually, I was writing that post for ages because I was doing other stuff at the time so when I origionally saw the thread your post wasn't there, quite funky that though.

As for the fxo thing, what? I havn't drove that car in about a year, I jumped in it when the weight penaltys came in the old patch for about 3 laps, so I have no idea what your talking about.

But yea, generally in cars like teh FXO and the XFR you can get around the corner just as fast will less lock and making the rear end more loose can also help. Now though, the problem is much bigger as there is really nothing that can be done about it especcially on tracks like south city....

So we are agreeing that there are problems with XFR and the tires? Especially on South City. I drove some set, pumped up R3 tires pretty hard, and i could do 20 laps without any issues with them, they could last longer probably, but i had to go... BUT, that was almost 3 seconds off the WR pace...
I found some Flotch's HL and race sets (new, after "Y" sets) and the front right tire on the race set was cooked after 2, 3 laps and didn't cool down at all in the next few laps, then i couldn't stand the understeer anymore and i quited..
Sooo, aa.. can anyone (Bawbag) post some replay with R3 tires on South city, i want to know what's the problem, my driving style, or what...
The solution is deffinately to race more gently, but who want's to be a looser? who wants to drive 4 secs of the WR? What's the solution here?

Quote from Bawbag :

As for the fxo thing, what? I havn't drove that car in about a year...

I was just using you to make a point, I am pretty sure it was you though but from along time ago when tyre heat was still pretty new, back in the days of team400

I was going to say in my post, that the only race i've ever done in the FXO at south city was the Origional LFS league and that was in my first week of S2....3 days after getting my first wheel.

But yea, that was a good first combo for me, taught me not to use so much lock, and even got me a top 10 finish from 17th IIRC.

@Boris, i'll try and have a go in the XFR at So Long someitme tonight or tommorow, just because the XFR is one of my faveroute cars and I havn't driven it in months.

Edit : Ok so I made a quick setup and it works quite nice, no real tyre problems, you just have to make your that your not turning to much while throttling out of the corners and the heat only goes to about 116 on the cambered part, but it cools down very quickly.

I managed to push it a bit after 10 laps and the heat could hit about 117 but it cooled down allmost instantly so the tyres really arn't a problem after the first 10 laps.

I guess it's not as bad as I thought.....

Hey thanks Bawbag will check those out when i get home..

Quote from Bawbag :

I guess it's not as bad as I thought.....

Knew you would be the man for the job

You use all the track, and I mean all of it Also your throttle, brake and steering inputs are very well balanced for the combo. Poetry in motion as always

Quote from bbman :

I think you've been fooled by the overdone aural and visual feedback of LfS (to compensate for the lack of G-forces) that people are driving constantly over the limit... The only car I've noticed to be constantly overdriven is the BF1, where you have to basically powerslide round every corner to be fast, only to be reigned in by the traction control...

There is probably something to that argument. But, I also often see people making quick steering adjustments which, (if the feedback/physics model truely is that accurate), can only mean they've lost traction at the back and are catching the slide.

If there was one aspect of LFS that I would really like to see implemented above everything else it would be to get the tyre/grip model as accurate as possible, (personally I would have put this over and above tyre heating and the consequences of it, but anyway :tilt, as IMHO it's a fundamental part of the physics of car handling.

I drove with your set Bawbag, although on So town.. and i cook the tires after 5, 6 laps, the temp gets over 130 and i tried to be as gentle as possible.... Guess i have to practice more..

Quote from gezmoor :

There is probably something to that argument. But, I also often see people making quick steering adjustments which, (if the feedback/physics model truely is that accurate), can only mean they've lost traction at the back and are catching the slide.

If there was one aspect of LFS that I would really like to see implemented above everything else it would be to get the tyre/grip model as accurate as possible, (personally I would have put this over and above tyre heating and the consequences of it, but anyway :tilt, as IMHO it's a fundamental part of the physics of car handling.

That's true... Only thing is when you watch onboard-videos of very good drivers, you'll see that they're working their arms off pushing the car to the limit and just holding it on the ragged edge...

Don't get me wrong, I very well feel that there are some problems with longitudinal force vs. slip, tyre load sensitivity and force combining, maybe other things too, still I don't believe it's that far off you want to make us believe it is...

In my opinion, there is not just one, but three factors to this problem: tyres, setups and confidence...

Tyres, as discussed here, are currently too forgiving, they lack a somewhat snappyness...
Setup, as the adjustability of the XRG would pale every F1-engineer in available fine-tuning...
Confidence, not just because there is no fear of injury, but for not finishing. LfS still has no real terminal damage (hence why I rate endurance races utterly nonsensical at the moment)...

Quote from Boris Lozac :

I drove with your set Bawbag, although on So town.. and i cook the tires after 5, 6 laps, the temp gets over 130 and i tried to be as gentle as possible.... Guess i have to practice more..

Pay very careful attention to bawbags steering, brake and throttle inputs. That's the key imo.

Key points to notice are:

The pattern of braking - full brake pressue trailing off towards apex, also note he is not using engine braking exessively.

Steering - Steers into a corner on gental arc under trail braking, right at the apex he is completely off the brake / throttle and that is where he has max steering angle.

Throttle - He is waits for the car to be in the right position (attitude) for a good corner exit before he applies full throttle.

A problem I have often is I constantly am trying to go faster by being closer to the edge of grip all the time. In doing this I tend to cause my lines to suffer slightly.

It actually is better to focus on smooth driving and good lines more than raw speed, which we all know but for some reason never seems to get through my thick skull .

I learnt a long time ago (s1 days) I think it was vince from mercury that spent 15 mins or so coaching me over ts and that's what he was drumming in my head over an over.

Slow down a little and concentrate on your racing line!

Well I guess if it's at So town then the tyres might get a bit hotter, but I don't think it should be to big a differnce, I might give it a go though, just to test.

Blargh, another locked diff setup that drives like a pig if you're not on the throttle.

Quote from Boris Lozac :

I drove with your set Bawbag, although on So town.. and i cook the tires after 5, 6 laps, the temp gets over 130 and i tried to be as gentle as possible.... Guess i have to practice more..

What times are you getting? After 6 or so laps my temps were at 110, but I only managed a sucky 1:24 in the process (steering with one hand can be tricky). With clutch packs I managed a 1:23.4x at similar temps, but I didn't really try. At least such a setup doesn't drive as counter intuitive as a locked diff one does.

Quote from AndroidXP :

What times are you getting? After 6 or so laps my temps were at 110, but I only managed a sucky 1:24 in the process

I was getting high 1:22's and low 1:23's at So Town... In that tempo, the front right tire gets cooked after 5, 6 laps, goes over 130, and the front left goes to 120..
I used to have an agressive driving style, but i've change it, when we were practicing for MOE (FXR at So long), and i think i quite improved and learned to be gentle..
I drive pretty much the same as Bawbag in most parts of the track, the tricky part for me is the braking for the right hander (at the second split at So Town) where you brake from 5th to 1st gear.. That's where i seem to generate the most heat and certainly making a couple of hot/flat spots..
Maybe my pedals are also one of the problems, (crappy Momo pedals, reduced the travel length with DXTWEAK) so they are more sensitive to inputs..
But i kinda agree with my teammate, i think the XFR has too much power on the front wheels curently.. and it kinda delivers that power too brutal.. I tried with Viscious LSD, now THAT'S brutal!

The thing is, it's doable (as Bawbag demonstrated), you just have to have a soffisticated driving style, and maybe it should be like that, i mean racing in RL IS hard, but i kinda see the frustration it can cause to many people, which find it now too difficult to drive...