I'm still trying to get better at this game. I've been practicing following the best driving line using the "4" view to show me the line. My question is should I be able to match the times of the AI if we both use the default setup and the ai is set to pro (or fast or whatever the hardest AI is). The reason I ask is I'm still 7 seconds behind the AI and I just want to make sure the AI doesn't get some extra advantage so I'll never be able to catch them without changing my car setup.

The AI drives the default setup too (in your case), so yes, you should be able to match and beat them. Pro AI has become more competent in the latest patch, but it's still not fast enough to be a real challenge for experienced racers. Actually most of the challenge comes from them wrecking you, not their speed

AI has been improved a lot since last patch, but it still can be improved 500% more. I usually race against bots and in tracks I have no experience in we made more or less the same lap time, but in tracks where I have practiced before, it´s very easy to start a race in the last postion and finishing first.
So yes, LFS devs want to do the AI unbeatable, but it isn´t yet.
Just press Tab key and see how they drive

Quote from AndroidXP :

Actually most of the challenge comes from them wrecking you, not their speed

Indeed. Don't be put off if you can't manage to overtake the AI because of the way they drive. You should be satisfied as long as you can keep their pace (or better) throughout the race.

Well right now I can't pass them because I can't keep up with them. Just wanted to make sure its possible and that they don't have some kind of cheat code to give them an advantage with the default setup.

I guess I really do stink

Like others said, the AI drive the default line, with same braking points... create your own, braking points and lines, and you can beat them easily..

Quote from jarmenia :

Just wanted to make sure its possible and that they don't have some kind of cheat code to give them an advantage with the default setup.

nah thats one of the few truely good things about the current (and past) ai code... it uses the same physics you do

Quote from jarmenia :

...they don't have some kind of cheat code to give them an advantage with the default setup...

That´s exactly why LFS has the best AI (technically, of course). Other games do what you are saying. I remember seeing a bot driving through the grass like if he was on tarmac, because the physics aren´t applied to the AI like LFS does. That was in F1 Challenge.

If you want to beat the AI, it often helps to get up beside them and take the racing line. This will cause them to think they're in trouble (since you're blocking the race line) and often brake down hard.

And don't worry about laptimes yet. Put priority on getting consistent first, and then the laptimes will follow. Good luck!

Quote from Gnomie :

If you want to beat the AI, it often helps to get up beside them and take the racing line. This will cause them to think they're in trouble (since you're blocking the race line) and often brake down hard.

And don't worry about laptimes yet. Put priority on getting consistent first, and then the laptimes will follow. Good luck!

I want to beat them by driving better so I can start racing online. Until I can beat the AI, there's no point in going online since I'll only get killed and cause people to wreck.

Quote from jarmenia :

I want to beat them by driving better so I can start racing online. Until I can beat the AI, there's no point in going online since I'll only get killed and cause people to wreck.

Definitely don't hold back from racing online because you don't feel you're good enough. They are people of all skill levels and online racing is one of the best way to learn to be a better driver. The AI do the same thing every time and trying to match them isn't going to teach you anything more than the basic line. The CTRA servers are great for beginers with their XFG/XRG and FBM server. If you're still really into beating or matching the AI, make sure you have the same amount of fuel they have. I remember a while ago when I was messing around with the AI with the FBM on Blackwood and I could keep up but even in their draft on the straight, they would leave me behind. I was going nuts trying to find out how to later realise I had way too much fuel on-board. Once I fixed this problem I was beating them with ease.

Quote from jarmenia :

I want to beat them by driving better so I can start racing online. Until I can beat the AI, there's no point in going online since I'll only get killed and cause people to wreck.

Slow drivers generally don't cause wrecks. Stupid drivers cause wrecks.

If you're the former but not the latter, you should have few problems.

Seven seconds slower than AI is a lot. Better set the AI level to low or medium. When you can beat them, switch to high.

Some tips for going online:

- Choose one car & track combo and practice well on that. When you know how to drive decent laptimes, you can start learning other tracks. (The CTRA servers are very good, but they have track rotation, which is a disadvantage for newbies.) The combo should be popular, so that when you go online, you will find a server and people to race against.

- If you're not sure your laptime is acceptable, then join a server and just spectate. After watching a few races you know if you can keep up with the slower guys.

- If you are one of the slowest in the pack, then drive the car to the side of the track when the race starts. Let everyone pass, then go after them. (If you drive consistently and avoid the crashes, you have a good chance of finishing mid-field or better. )

Quote from wsinda :

Seven seconds slower than AI is a lot. Better set the AI level to low or medium. When you can beat them, switch to high.

Some tips for going online:

- Choose one car & track combo and practice well on that. When you know how to drive decent laptimes, you can start learning other tracks. (The CTRA servers are very good, but they have track rotation, which is a disadvantage for newbies.) The combo should be popular, so that when you go online, you will find a server and people to race against.

- If you're not sure your laptime is acceptable, then join a server and just spectate. After watching a few races you know if you can keep up with the slower guys.

- If you are one of the slowest in the pack, then drive the car to the side of the track when the race starts. Let everyone pass, then go after them. (If you drive consistently and avoid the crashes, you have a good chance of finishing mid-field or better. )

These are good tips. I've been trying to learn one track / ccar at a time. I'm really interested in open wheel so that's what I've been working on (FBM and FOX). Practicing yesterday I cut my time down to 5 seconds back of the AI. Not great but an improvement.

I also took at look at the AI in Analyze for speed so I know where I am losing time so I'll start working on those corners tonight.

Quote from jarmenia :

I also took at look at the AI in Analyze for speed so I know where I am losing time so I'll start working on those corners tonight.

The new AI are a great improvement over the old versions, but they still quite often take certain sections of some tracks way too slow. So don't use them to learn from other than getting familiar with a combo.
Download some WR replays off http://www.lfsworld.net/

Under hotlaps and the wr tab.

Get on line - pronto !! The best and quickest way to get better as a complete beginner is to sit in car with a fast guy on-line and see what they do, (make sure you have "show pedals" set to on). You'll probably be amazed at some of the things they are/aren't doing that you are/aren't. Oh and of course some of the lines they take will certainly surprise you if you are 7 seconds off the AIs lap times.

Note - just make sure you sit in with a driver who is using the same controller as you and preferably using the same set. You can always ask them to try their set, most people are pretty generous in this way.

Quote from gezmoor :

Get on line - pronto !! The best and quickest way to get better as a complete beginner is to sit in car with a fast guy on-line and see what they do, (make sure you have "show pedals" set to on). You'll probably be amazed at some of the things they are/aren't doing that you are/aren't. Oh and of course some of the lines they take will certainly surprise you if you are 7 seconds off the AIs lap times.

Note - just make sure you sit in with a driver who is using the same controller as you and preferably using the same set. You can always ask them to try their set, most people are pretty generous in this way.

Watching others is the same idea as what I've been doing with the AI using the default setup. Even if the AI does take corners too slow, I would think since I'm 5 seconds behding them I should at least be able to match them. Is that correct?

Asking for and using someone else's setup feel like a cheat to me as I wouldn't really learn much. I'd rather learn and understand why I am slower and then develop my own setup based on what I have learned. It may take me longer to be competitive at first, but in the long run it should help me improve at new courses / new cars much quicker.

Quote from jarmenia :

Watching others is the same idea as what I've been doing with the AI using the default setup. Even if the AI does take corners too slow, I would think since I'm 5 seconds behding them I should at least be able to match them. Is that correct?

Asking for and using someone else's setup feel like a cheat to me as I wouldn't really learn much. I'd rather learn and understand why I am slower and then develop my own setup based on what I have learned. It may take me longer to be competitive at first, but in the long run it should help me improve at new courses / new cars much quicker.

Yes you should be able to get to within a second or two of an AI by watching how they drive, (assuming both are using the same sets). But to surpass them, (which you need to do if you ever want to be competitive on line), you will need to watch on line drivers. Like I said you'll be surprised at how differently they are driving. Why waste your time learning a slow driving technique, when you can be learning the fast one from the beggining?

Sets are not the magic bullet you seem to think they are. The pace of the fastest guys is 90% driving and 10% set on a lot of the cars. So using someones set is not cheating in any way. It just ensures that you can emulate their driving style and not run too deep because you've locked up the wheels for example or spin out because they're using a higher gear ratio in the same gear than your set. Chances are they're using a set that was given to them anyway.

Also, I wouldn't worry about any inability to be able to produce a set. Real racing drivers rarely have any clue about how cars should be set up, that's what the team techs for. Schumey was renound exactly because he was one of those rare drivers that really could give useful feedback to the tech guys to make the car faster.

Quote from gezmoor :

Yes you should be able to get to within a second or two of an AI by watching how they drive, (assuming both are using the same sets). But to surpass them, (which you need to do if you ever want to be competitive on line), you will need to watch on line drivers. Like I said you'll be surprised at how differently they are driving. Why waste your time learning a slow driving technique, when you can be learning the fast one from the beggining?

From the WR I've watched, they are on the absolute cutting edge and if I try and emulate what they are doing I generally don't make it through one lap. The same was happening with me when I tried to emulate the AI, but I've slowly gotten better. My theory is, that as I get better at keeping up with the AI, I will learn to feel where I can push the car a little more and then overtake the AI.

Quote :

Sets are not the magic bullet you seem to think they are. The pace of the fastest guys is 90% driving and 10% set on a lot of the cars. So using someones set is not cheating in any way. It just ensures that you can emulate their driving style and not run too deep because you've locked up the wheels for example or spin out because they're using a higher gear ratio in the same gear than your set. Chances are they're using a set that was given to them anyway.

I don't think the sets are a magic bullet in anyway shape or form, but from what I've read, for a driver to truly get the most out of the car, they need to have their set built to the way they drive. I tried downloading a set for the FBM and it was so lose I couldn't keep it stable around the first two turns. Now a lot of that is my driving style of course as I'm still learning, but if I can't make it around the track in as set what good will the fact its a WR set do for me?

Quote :

Also, I wouldn't worry about any inability to be able to produce a set. Real racing drivers rarely have any clue about how cars should be set up, that's what the team techs for. Schumey was renound exactly because he was one of those rare drivers that really could give useful feedback to the tech guys to make the car faster.

This kind of goes with what I was saying above. I know most real life racers don't know how a car should be setup. But I would like to learn, to me that's half the fun of racing. Add to the fact that with that knowledge I can make a car better suit the way I drive and it seems like knowing how to setup a car can be a big help. I don't want to depend on getting a set from someone else just so I can be competitive.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I don't want to just win a race, I want to win many races and to do that I think I need to know both parts of the equation. The first is how to drive, and the second is how the setup works. To use an analogy, great cooks don't just use other peoples recipes, they create their own, even if they do learn from others first.

well if you really want to improve watch some world records and learn lines and braking points, or providing replay of your driving so we can see what you are doing wrong. AI's are really slow, so i bet u turn your wheel too much in turns if you are using one or ur just not using the speed. Take some risks, it will come to you...

You sound like a dedicated guy, jarmenia. With that attitude you'll get far. Keep it up!

Regarding setups: I agree that setups from setupfield and such are generally very on the limit, and usually designed to last only ~5 laps. Not very useful. I recommend searching the servers on lfsworld and going online on one where people are driving the car/combo you're interested in, and asking kindly if someone could share with you a race setup. (you can specify that you're looking for a stable setup rather than a super-fast one) They probably will.

Then you use that as a base for further tweaking. Normally stuff like camber and tyre pressure are pretty intuitive if you press F9 while driving and take a look at the pressure and temperature indicators. Brakes might also need adjusting. But for most people, the fine tuning of suspension and dampers and such is just too complex. (at least for me.. :shy

Watch WR replays noting brake points and apex speeds and while your learning a track tack emulate the driving of WR holder but brake 10m earlier and take the corner 5-10km/hr (at the apex) slower. Once your comfortable with that you should be as fast as the AI or faster and be ready for online.

Quote from Gnomie :

You sound like a dedicated guy, jarmenia. With that attitude you'll get far. Keep it up!

Regarding setups: I agree that setups from setupfield and such are generally very on the limit, and usually designed to last only ~5 laps. Not very useful. I recommend searching the servers on lfsworld and going online on one where people are driving the car/combo you're interested in, and asking kindly if someone could share with you a race setup. (you can specify that you're looking for a stable setup rather than a super-fast one) They probably will.

Then you use that as a base for further tweaking. Normally stuff like camber and tyre pressure are pretty intuitive if you press F9 while driving and take a look at the pressure and temperature indicators. Brakes might also need adjusting. But for most people, the fine tuning of suspension and dampers and such is just too complex. (at least for me.. :shy

Thanks Gnomie. I'm thinking of taking part in http://www.owrl.de/news.php. The two week schedule give me something to work towards as I try and learn the track. For the first season, my goal will just be to finish each race and get as good as I can driving the default setups with the only things I'll change being gearing, fuel level, tire pressure, and tire type. Once I get through a full season, I should have enough Seat time that I can start asking about tweaking setups ect. I realise driving the default set that I have no chance of winning but my first season will be for the sole purpose of experience.

Once season two starts, I hope to use that experience to finish better and better. As long as people are willing to answer my noob questions (and it seems the are), I think I'll be ok. I was able to master Falcon 4, so LFS should be no problem if I put the time in.

Oh yeah, and if people are willing, I'd like to post replays as I learn the track with my own analysis. The intent to be I hope people can point out where my analysis is wrong and right so I can learn to self diagnose most problems.

most of the time you can out break them or apply the throttle a little longer. on the strieght though they are hard to match.