Good point. I'll pay 3, 4, or 5 more if it's providing 3-5x more content. Right now, it provides something LFS does not - real tracks. That doesn't mean that real tracks are better than LFS's tracks, or that the game will be more fun or anything like that. But it does bring something to the table that LFS does not.

rFactor may also have a ton of real tracks - I have not given it a good look yet (I've only played it once in a $20,000 simulator that was not setup properly - I had to hold the wheel 20 degrees to the left to go straight!). I have my doubts about the consistency in track quality and car physics in all the various mods.

Personally I don't think real tracks make an effective training tool. In fact i think it can have an opposite effect. You can over familiarise yourself with the virtual track that you can almost develop bad habits that won't be effective in the real deal.

For learning the basic layout a sim is fine, but tuning the finer points of driving a certain track just can't be simulated accurately.

For me the driving physics are PARAMOUNT if to be used as a training tool. Tracks are not relevant at all in my opinion.

NetKar, and LFS are probably may favourites for training yet do not accurately model, or have real tracks.

The only think that can get you perfecting a track is too actually drive it for real. Sims are EXCELLENT for training a driver IMO but they do not provide an effective tool for mastering a track.

I'd agree with Alan on that (for once ). To all intends and purposes all a real track in a game can teach is which way the next corner goes. It can't teach you braking points, wet lines, power application points, apex speeds or anything like that.

I suppose it could teach potential overtaking places, and on a really REALLY good representation give an idea of driving line, but only as long as the player drives just like in real life and does not take ANY advantage WHATSOEVER from game limitations - using kerbs heavily where in real life it'd upset the car or break something.

I have to agree with the pair above me for once

I've just watched the video and I'm not impressed, the Formula Mazdas just seemed to be able to drive all over the grass and curbs without being impeded and didn't seem to move as convincingly as nK or LFS. The graphics looked quite nice, nothing special though on the oval but the open wheeled bit with a relatively more open track looked absolutely awful with stupidly bright grass, which by the sounds of the no modding policy may not be editable. Overall the race format thing is actually appealing to me, it might be nice if there was an optional sanctioned server system for LFS in the future but my biggest concern is that the physics really don't seem to have been sorted for the single seaters, it really looks like the N2003 engine over again.

My biggest issue is this whole making sim racing a 'legitimate' form of motorsport though. I'm sorry sim racing is ultimately always going to be a glorified computer game that may have a good claim to being a useful training aid in techniques and skills (but not learning cars, tracks or car specific setups). I'm never going to go and watch an online race of maybe more than 5 minutes, the STCC broadcasts were just far too long. Given that I'm interested in sim racing and real racing and have no desire to watch it online and would right letters of complaint if Autosport started wasting space reporting on it I can't see much of a target audience they really seem to have got that bizarre '7 figures' idea that Becky got.

I just think they have misjudged the target audience and are aiming this at racers, rather than sim racers. All this talk about it being used as a training tool is years ahead of what technology can do.





I'm still going to give it a shout though for a month when it comes out.

There are some core problems that make anything more than "recognised by" a RL motorsports body, for example, just plain fantasy. It's simply not feasible for sim racing, as a sport in the sense that we approach it, to get recognised. There is no drugs testing infrastructure, for starters, and creating it is simply not feasible.. and that's just one issue of many that are insurmountable.

Add to that the need for verified organization membership (i.e. names and addresses and signatures etc.. because of these issues, sim racing over the internet CAN NOT become a recognised sport, and unless it can do that, it really can't be anything more than exactly what it is now.. a simulated, virtual sport - an emulation of an entirely separate real-life sport, but never to be a sport in its own right. Whatever varying aspirations we all may have about our beloved activity, that's actually the reality.

The reaction to iRacing's pricing policy is very understandable, and I do not believe this policy was one that was considered at the start of iRacing's development.

Personally I feel that iRacing may have been forced into this pricing policy because they have invested a lot of money into this project, and have employed a lot of people who want to see a consistant return.

It does scream of slightly unimaginative pricing. If they truly believe that iRacing was the sim of all sims then they would be concentrating on developing relationships with potential advertisers and not passing the costs over to the customers.

Their interview with SRT was slightly worrying also. Promising Karts, and Bikes? To me that sounds like a panic reaction to the stick iRacing has got in the sim community. Are they really considering putting them in the game, and will they be any good? It sounds like they are trying top convince us that it 'will be worth it'. And we can see what happens when a developer fails to deliver on it's promises... aka NetKar

I don't know bikes, but have a decent understanding of kart physics. There are a couple of kart sims being developed, and I can assure iRacing that it is NOT a simple job. I just can't see how they can do it properly. It's a whole different technology, and the fact their are several diferent types that work in several different ways... HHmm.....

Seeing is believing as they say.

But it's comments like that can make or break a sim.

LFS has never over promised... I recall them suggesting they thought about adding karts and what not... but never saying... "we WILL......" That's been key to it's success.

Maybe iRacing will be brilliant, and a success, but I have learnt to go with my gut instincts over time, and something just don't feel right with iRacing... I don't have a problem with iRacing as a sim, but I can't help but feel something within that organisation isn't fully working as they would like.

For sim racing to be recognized as a sport a lot need to happen. First off one needs to decide whether it is virtual form of motorsports or gaming tournament with racing game. Most LFS racing events seem, feel and sound like racing game events, even if some more serious than others.

Like ASUS 200 instead of Ford virtual 200. There is a huge difference how you look at these, one is something that takes a lot of skill and in its own way is fun and very challenging. Other is serious, structured and on some ways maybe bit more dry while the other one is much more fun orientated. The way the crowd sees the event is totally different when you are watching a game instead of virtual racing event.

The fact that the driver is some spotty nerd living with his parents on his late 30s doesn't take anything away from a virtual racing event but that same spotty nerd is the prime prototype of a pro gamer.

It is a bit unclear wether the iracing want the pro racers or the pro gamers. LFS and nkpro are clear cases with their approach .

Another aspect is internet. If some serious racing events were arranged so that everyone is in the same place (=LAN event), had a nice 20 or 40 401 motion sims and high-tech PCs. A true F1 of racing sim events. If the same event was arranged via internet it would not rank as high because it is automatically seen as game.

I have huge doubts wether iracing or anyone can make simracing big but it is good to see that some are trying. In the 60s and 70s people would say you're nuts if you said something abiout mobile telephones. Maybe it is same thing with sim racing. Before internet connections and online racing the racing sim fans didn't really like internet racing but once they tried it they couldn't live without. Maybe there is another step to take, I just can't see how it could be done and with what but maybe the step is not really big for sim racers, maybe the step is for the viewers and those who see simracing just as gaming?

iRacing - "we can't be all things for all people, we know we can't do that. We are going to stay focussed on what we can do well"

iRacing - "Karting will definately be part of the service... drag racing is in our future, dirt racing is in our future as well as motorcycles"



alright maybe I am being harsh. It could be stunning... but hehe... can't be all things for all people... yet we are going to try

Quote from Intrepid :

Personally I don't think real tracks make an effective training tool. In fact i think it can have an opposite effect. You can over familiarise yourself with the virtual track that you can almost develop bad habits that won't be effective in the real deal.

For learning the basic layout a sim is fine, but tuning the finer points of driving a certain track just can't be simulated accurately.

For me the driving physics are PARAMOUNT if to be used as a training tool. Tracks are not relevant at all in my opinion.

NetKar, and LFS are probably may favourites for training yet do not accurately model, or have real tracks.

The only think that can get you perfecting a track is too actually drive it for real. Sims are EXCELLENT for training a driver IMO but they do not provide an effective tool for mastering a track.

Track layout and surface simulation is still relative simplier than driving physics simulation. I mean if you think driving a virtual track can develop bad habits, driving a virtual car will only be worse. But most of the case the virtual experience will not hamper ones ability to learn once they have driven on the real stuff, human are pretty quick learners.

The benefit of real tracks in Iracing is more about connecting the sim racing world with the real racing world, not nessecary convincing the real racers you can have it cheap on a computer, but rather help them understand what simracing as a standalone is trying to achieve, by having an accurate track they can see how we approach the same corner and notices the similarity in techniques, and it adds to the credibity of simracing being a form of professional sport.

I disagree. The FIRST thing a proper driver will do is go into T1 and say.... "that aint right" instantly discrediting the sim as a 'training' tool

What we are talking about is using the simulated track as a specific tool for learning it, and I don't think that will ever be done. It's almost pointless. If the track is perfect the driving model probably won't be. There is an INFINATE amounts of factors that have to be considered including the fact that tracks are organic things.

Apart from learning layout I can't see it's use in terms of actual training of the circuit.

In terms of actual driving improvement sims IMO help improve the mental aspect more than anything. Approached correctly and you can improve racing techniques, as well as consistancy. I agree the brain is smart enough to know the 'difference'.

I understand that they have to include these tracks, and vehicles otherwise they wouldn't be able to price the sim as it is. LFS is unique in this sense. But iRacing is promising SO MUCH it will HAVE TO BE PERFECT! maybe it will be who knows

Quote from Mattesa :

That's my point exactly. It's not iRacing vs. a Trackday, it's iRacing vs. LFS. Why pay 3,4,5 times more for iRacing when I'm already 90% of the way there with LFS?

It's diminishing returns really, getting a 250kph car is not expensive, but getting a 300kph one wouldn't just add 20% to your price tag. it'll require more.

Quote from Intrepid :

I disagree. The FIRST thing a proper driver will do is go into T1 and say.... "that aint right" instantly discrediting the sim as a 'training' tool

What we are talking about is using the simulated track as a specific tool for learning it, and I don't think that will ever be done. It's almost pointless. If the track is perfect the driving model probably won't be. There is an INFINATE amounts of factors that have to be considered including the fact that tracks are organic things.

Apart from learning layout I can't see it's use in terms of actual training of the circuit.

In terms of actual driving improvement sims IMO help improve the mental aspect more than anything. Approached correctly and you can improve racing techniques, as well as consistancy. I agree the brain is smart enough to know the 'difference'.

I understand that they have to include these tracks, and vehicles otherwise they wouldn't be able to price the sim as it is. LFS is unique in this sense. But iRacing is promising SO MUCH it will HAVE TO BE PERFECT! maybe it will be who knows

You are disagreeing to a point that I did not make.

I did not say a simulator makes a good track learning tool. I just said it is not better as a driving skill honing tool than as a track learning tool. And I also said while its benefit is unproven, it really should not have a negative effect on ones learning. The mental benefits I agree, some of my friends who does club racing would hook up in LFS before the actual race, just getting use to the stress of going into T1.

I have reasonable expectations towards Iracing, the physics is going to be very good, but even very good physics has its limitation when you are sitting still with a dummy steering wheel, so after a decade of sim racing experience now it wouldn't just simply blow me away, its still nothing compare to the real stuff. However I am more attracted to the professional approach they take, if it attracts the right people and indeed provides a very good platform to cater different people's needs, it might be the best sim racing experience you can ever had, there may even be some unexpected reward for being good at it as well. I am usually rather detached with game loyalty and stuff however I am getting some faith in this one, a bit like when I first know LFS.

And think about it, if Iracing turns out to be shit, it would be a good argument against people who bitch about LFS having slow development and only hiring 3 people.

Quote from JJ72 :

I did not say a simulator makes a good track learning tool. I just said it is not better as a driving skill honing tool than as a track learning tool.

My tuppence worth... Simulations are good for teaching the concepts of racing, good on the abstract and theoretical side of car behaviour. (for example "oh... so that's what oversteer is.", not "Ahhh!! So that's what oversteer is!!")

Quote from JJ72 :

You are disagreeing to a point that I did not make.

I did not say a simulator makes a good track learning tool. I just said it is not better as a driving skill honing tool than as a track learning tool. And I also said while its benefit is unproven, it really should not have a negative effect on ones learning. The mental benefits I agree, some of my friends who does club racing would hook up in LFS before the actual race, just getting use to the stress of going into T1.

I have reasonable expectations towards Iracing, the physics is going to be very good, but even very good physics has its limitation when you are sitting still with a dummy steering wheel, so after a decade of sim racing experience now it wouldn't just simply blow me away, its still nothing compare to the real stuff. However I am more attracted to the professional approach they take, if it attracts the right people and indeed provides a very good platform to cater different people's needs, it might be the best sim racing experience you can ever had, there may even be some unexpected reward for being good at it as well. I am usually rather detached with game loyalty and stuff however I am getting some faith in this one, a bit like when I first know LFS.

And think about it, if Iracing turns out to be shit, it would be a good argument against people who bitch about LFS having slow development and only hiring 3 people.

yh sorry about i was tired it was late lol

I think this game will be the most pricy video game EVER made considering you buy the new content + monthly subscription.I don't see the reason under the monthly subscription for a racing simulator :S.They even make you pay for the demo...oh god.If they continue like this,they should make the website access 5$/month.An official forum?2$/month.I can understand monthly fees for an MMORPG but for a racing simulator....

Quote from CobraDrifter :

I think this game will be the most pricy video game EVER made considering you buy the new content + monthly subscription.I don't see the reason under the monthly subscription for a racing simulator :S.They even make you pay for the demo...oh god.If they continue like this,they should make the website access 5$/month.An official forum?2$/month.I can understand monthly fees for an MMORPG but for a racing simulator....

Dont be hating just because iracing isnt idrifting.

Think about the amount of $ that it takes to maintain servers on a continental level to supply the demand of the online aspect of the sim, not to mention constant development and expanding aspects. You want it all for free?

Quote from RMachucaA :

Think about the amount of $ that it takes to maintain servers on a continental level to supply the demand of the online aspect of the sim, not to mention constant development and expanding aspects. You want it all for free?

I'm not disagreeing with you, at all, but I thought I'd point out that the LFS model does not involve ongoing monthly subscriptions, and yet the amount of data moved by LFSW, including InSim relay and lo-res skin downloads must be significant. LFSW is entirely UK-hosted, and I know from experience that UK server co-lo is ~2x the cost of co-lo in the US or more, even after factoring out the current exchange rate twists caused by the weak US$. Also, iRacing's hosting is not inter-continental. They have stated that their servers will all be US-based, I believe.

I just wanted to point that out, because it definitely isn't a given that ongoing services require ongoing subscriptions.

Quote from RMachucaA :

Dont be hating just because iracing isnt idrifting.

Think about the amount of $ that it takes to maintain servers on a continental level to supply the demand of the online aspect of the sim, not to mention constant development and expanding aspects. You want it all for free?

Did I said I hated iracing because it's not idrifting?..didn't know.You might be...a drifter hater?I started racing on CTRA & Conedodgers for your information.These servers cost nothing compared to WoW servers wich need to handle 5,000,000+ players traffic per day.

As far as sim racing developing real driving skills, I was amazed to learn that David Kaemmer set a lap record (in real life) in a new car at some track that stood for literally years. He credited this to all the driving he did with N2003. So, that might mean something - or lots of things. Maybe it just means he has natural talent, but it's interesting anyway. It's in a GPL history article in ASS.

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

As far as sim racing developing real driving skills, I was amazed to learn that David Kaemmer set a lap record (in real life) in a new car at some track that stood for literally years. He credited this to all the driving he did with N2003. So, that might mean something - or lots of things. Maybe it just means he has natural talent, but it's interesting anyway. It's in a GPL history article in ASS.

Which car/track was this? AFAIK he has only raced small single seaters on road courses so the claim that N2003 helped him learn a track is ridiculous. Of course you don't even have to be a good driver to set a lap record for your series in the fastest car on a track that hasn't been visited for years (hence old record) and doesn't have a strong turn out.

New-generation Skip Barber car at Lime Rock. It's in the interview with Alison Hine, GPL beta tester.

Indeed, and the point wasn't learning the track, or what caliber of competition had also run the same combo over those years. The point is developing driving ability and skill - which since he's not a real life competitor should be zilch according to many opinions here. Whether it made him a driving god or just "better than he should be given his experience level" is debatable; the fact that it made him better is not and that's the point.

..and the fact that wrote the sim, that he claimed in that interview had given him an advantage on the track, and that he's now deeply involved in writing another sim, using the same source as N2003 as a base, that he claims will help real racing drivers gain an advantage on the track.. is this up for debate either?

[/cynicism]

LOL, smartass.

If you disprove that he set that record, you have a case. Innocent until proven guilty

If he did indeed set the record, then there is substance to it regardless of the rest.

edit: just so things are not taken out of context, here is the snippet. cannot paste from the stupid PDF, here's a JPG instead.