@ flymike91; I respect all ideas sounded by individuals here. As long as they do it in proper way.
That web site I referred my previous post is for reference for you, it was posted by somebody on this forum but I don't remember who.
Palestine was there before Hamas. I don't approve hamas or any other terrorist groups action with Israels actions.

Can you accept "if you got the power", than you have to license to kill?
History is full of with that kind of stories. The powerful invaders comes and kills all the people around, thats the simply core of what happened till today. No matter what the name of the invader or invaded nation. World colonised vastly before..

Israel has the power, they claim that that place where they rule now is their "promised land". According to old testament. Thats it. That is true, they live thousand years with Palestinians together. They are close as uncle-nephew, they claimed that prophet Ibrahim/Abraam is belonged their side. Since this prophet, there is a sign between God and those poeple. What is that sign? If you know tell me.
It is a common sign, showed that both nations roots are closer than they think.
Palestine and Israeli peoples wanted to make peace, they tried several times in the past. But failed. Sabotaged.
There is a monster dwelling on this world feeds itself from wars, blood and tears.


@David33
I guess I understand you. I am not specialist of this subject but it seems like Iraq issue is distorted when transferred to your side. Its a thin ice. UN did not accept Iraqi invasion in the beginning as you may know. Whatever happened out there is no good for Iraqi people. In Iraq its been said like that; "Master come, Apprentice gone" They are talking like that, means invaders & Saddam.
And all the historic treasures of Iraq has been looted. This is a shame. Artifacts stoled from Baghdat museum and sold god knows to who...

Do you guys know that first advanced civilization is raised on Iraqi soil?
Do you guys know who invented the first battery/accumulator?
Volta?
No, it seems there is at least one guy made it real ~1000 BC. And this battery is still functioning! ~3000 years old battery. This battery found on Iraqi soil also. But now, god knows where...

Quote :

What we need to do is support it from the background and put constant pressure on muslim states to reform to provide a system that provides the same rights we enjoy in the western world including education and civil rights.

Have you ever thought that maybe the muslims don´t want to reform their countrys or use the same system as the western democracys? You can´t just force your view of the world on other cultures and expect them to accept it with open arms. For example the Russians people seem to be very happy living in an undemocratic country which is agressive against it´s neighbours, has no free press, constant propaganda and one great glorious leader. And their culture isn´t even that different from the western world.

On the sidenote I wouldn´t call USA a proper democracy because they use plurality voting system which means A LOT of votes just go missing and they give too much power to one person. But if that´s the way you like it then go ahead. Who am I to tell you how to run your country? Just like who are you to tell the Muslims how to run their country?

Quote from Hankstar :

and I don't think anyone my age could forget the 1991 Gulf War, after which - for some still unknown reason - Bush the 1st vacated Iraq, leaving Saddam to continue his oppression and even to ramp it up considerably, especially against rebels to whom Bush I had pledged support - support which he withdrew at the last moment, leaving them to the mercy of Saddam's security forces and the hell of Abu Ghraib.

I don't forget that, and also like many never understood it - specially when they had to do the whole thing again with Bush Junior (maybe its a family thing)
I remember Bushes failed promises of support to the Kurds and Marsh Arabs and then promtly left them to their fate when he withdrew.
I also distinctly remember thinking how stupid the Americans were to think that the had won the war when there was no one left to shoot at, it was plainly obvious that the Iraki army and gunmen had melted away knowing that they could not take on the US military face on - a guerilla war was so obviously the way to go.

And they entered Irak with just enough force to save the oilfields, but nowhere near enough to save the hospitals, the government buildings, libraries and museums, but of course they were looking for WMD wern't they? - (what a load of bollocks)

Nope the only thing that has amazed me about George Bush and his Cronies, is his moronic incompetence.

But hey, just like babyface Blair - they had god on their side how could they fail.

To be honest I don't think that Bush is a true god believer anyway, its just a face he puts on to make sure he get the vote and approval for his deads by the believing lapdogs in his own country.

My - this thread's got some legs has'nt it ?

Quote from Hankstar :

Great, now you're quoting from WND.com - which in turn cites FOX News as a source! You sure know how to pick 'em. Those two necon propaganda factories are about as "fair and balanced" as a seesaw with two fat kids at one end. What next - an op-ed piece from Bill O'Reilly?

OK; no Frontpagemag, no WND and no Fox News, as sources of information (also, no op-ed pieces from Bill O'Reilly). Anybody else?

Quote from Hankstar :

Saddam did not have ties to the Taliban or al-Qaeda - as a paranoid dictator he saw extremism of any form as a potential threat to his reign and simply did not tolerate extremist behaviour.

Do you mean that he did not tolerate extremist behavior, within Iraq? Or do you mean that he did not tolerate extremist behavior, outside Iraq? Or do you mean that he simply did not tolerate any extremist behavior, at all?

Quote from Hankstar :

The US can't keep blindly supporting Israel as it launches airstrikes on civilian neighbourhoods - effectingly lowering themselves to the level of indiscriminate Palestinian rocket attacks & suicide bombs - and still claim the moral high ground.

The US is very far from "blindly supporting Israel." Instead, it has organized several peace conferences, and it has continued to pressure Israel to refrain from violence (including retaliation for the extensive Hezbollah rocket attacks from Lebanon, a while back), and to make concessions (including, returning virtually all captured territories [Oslo accords, if I recall correctly], in exchange for peace; unfortunately, what Arafat required as the essential concession, was extinction of Israel, and this turned out to be a deal-breaker).

Anyway, the USA is an ally of Israel (democracy, and all), and that means that it is willing to support Israel's defense of its existence. Some persons have said that the USA is too willing to pressure Israel to make concessions for peace, arguing that such concessions would be suicidal for Israel.

As for "civilian neighborhoods," Palestinian civilians are its soldiers (as confusing as that may be, for everybody concerned), and while it would be nice if the Palestinians would be kind enough to identify who is the one that is making bombs and deploying them, and who is shooting rockets, and who is the peaceful civilian, and if these groups would separate themselves, and maybe wear uniforms, for the sake of conducting an orderly Geneva-Convention-style war, then things would perhaps work out more to your satisfaction. As it is, many Palestinians seem to prefer the confusion, since it gives them the opportunity to try to convince everybody that evil Israelis are attacking peaceful Palestinian civilians, and even to convince some foreigners to visit Palestine and to become human shields, themselves (presumably, so that the Palestinians can achieve their desire to have peace while living next door to Israel).

Quote from Hankstar :

the single biggest obstacle to peace since 1948 has been Israel and America.

Perhaps you're right. Anyway, the pertinent problem is that Israelis want Israel to exist, and several of Israel's neighbors want Israel not to exist. Please, let me know when you think of a peaceful solution to that disagreement.

Quote from Hankstar :

the Islamic Middle East was once the most educated & tolerant region on the planet, especially during Europe's Dark Ages.

Assuming that you're correct about this, it occurs to me that this represents a circumstance wherein the Middle East had been already conquered by Islam, while Europe was still in the process of attempted conquest by Islam (which attempt continued until the 17th Century). Also, Muslim law has a rather annoying version of "tolerance" toward non-Muslims:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi

I suppose that universal submission is one version of "peace."

Quote from Hankstar :

I don't suppose WND.com or FOX Noise have any articles detailing the long, close & lethal (for the Iranians) relationship between President Reagan, Donald Rumsfeld and Saddam Hussein do they?

I really don't know, but the problems of American interventionism, generally, are widely recognized. And btw, if you want to be really funny, you should perhaps henceforth spell "FOX" as "faux;" many persons do that, so I guess that it would be a great party trick.

Quote from Hankstar :

I don't think anyone my age could forget the 1991 Gulf War, after which - for some still unknown reason - Bush the 1st vacated Iraq

The reason was that the purpose of the war, was to kick Saddam out of Kuwait, and doing more than this (removing him from power in Iraq), would be difficult and, in any case, not seemingly supported by the UN and by the coalition of allies that had been formed with the intent to respond to Saddam's invasion of Kuwait. The result was a continuation of problems with Saddam, that became urgent (specifically, wrt his continuing enmity and pursuit of weapons, and the incipient failure of the "containment" of him [unpopular "sanctions," and the greatly corrupted "oil for food" program]), following the 9/11 event.

Quote from halo :

Do you guys know who invented the first battery/accumulator?
Volta?
No, it seems there is at least one guy made it real ~1000 BC. And this battery is still functioning! ~3000 years old battery. This battery found on Iraqi soil also. But now, god knows where...

This is interesting. Can you provide any details about the materials, and construction, of the battery?

David, when you tone it down a bit you sound shockingly reasonable.

FOX News guys could learn a thing or two from you. :P

Quote from Kalev EST :

the Russians people seem to be very happy living in an undemocratic country which is agressive against it´s neighbours, has no free press, constant propaganda and one great glorious leader. And their culture isn´t even that different from the western world.

There seems to have been a whole lot of Russians, who were not at all happy about the conditions of living in the Soviet Union; they were simply subjugated by force, which may seem to have achieved an apparently stable condition of political peace, but that's quite distinct from happiness. I really don't know what Russians, generally, think about their current circumstances; but then, I'm not even sure what are their current circumstances - although it does seem that Putin was trying pretty hard to restore the conditions of the old Soviet Union.

Quote from Kalev EST :

I wouldn´t call USA a proper democracy because they use plurality voting system which means A LOT of votes just go missing and they give too much power to one person.

You seem to be referring to the Electoral College, and the Election Primary system of some States. The reason for it all, is contained in the fact that the USA was never intended to be a democracy, but instead, a Constitutional Republic.

Explaining it all, would perhaps take some considerable time, but the short version is that the USA is a federation of originally autonomous States, which formed an alliance - to secure their independence from colonial Britain, and later, to secure their common defense. The "plurality voting system" is in recognition of, and accordance with, this federal nature of the USA.

A Constitutional Republic means that the government is established as having a specific purpose, and is given permission to exercise specified Powers, rather than simply being empowered to act to satisfy the popular will in any matter at all, which would characterize "democracy." Nevertheless, the USA is often described as "a democracy" - presumably, as a kind of simplified way of noting that citizens vote and are the foundations of political power.

Quote from David33 :

This is interesting. Can you provide any details about the materials, and construction, of the battery?

Here;
http://www.world-mysteries.com/sar_11.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baghdad_Battery

Edit;Previous post - Battery dated 248BCE and 266AD, ~2000 years old.

If you interested more check this;
The 10 Most Puzzling Ancient Artifacts

Quote from David33 :

There seems to have been a whole lot of Russians, who were not at all happy about the conditions of living in the Soviet Union; they were simply subjugated by force, which may seem to have achieved an apparently stable condition of political peace, but that's quite distinct from happiness. I really don't know what Russians, generally, think about their current circumstances; but then, I'm not even sure what are their current circumstances - although it does seem that Putin was trying pretty hard to restore the conditions of the old Soviet Union.

Most of the Russians were happy with Soviet Union. But the Soviet Union wasn´t made up of only Russians. It was the other nations that were occupied that were really unhappy - Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians, Poles, etc. Putin is so popular because he is indeed trying to restore the conditions of Soviet Union. He´s even said openly that he thinks the collapse of the Soviet Union was the biggest mistake of the 20 th century.

Quote from David33 :

Do you mean that he did not tolerate extremist behavior, within Iraq? Or do you mean that he did not tolerate extremist behavior, outside Iraq? Or do you mean that he simply did not tolerate any extremist behavior, at all?

AFAIK there has never been proof that Saddam facilitated fundamentalists in any way. If there was any proof, the Bush administration would have trumpeted it loudly, to justify the invasion.

Besides, fundamentalists and worldly rulers (e.g. Saddam, Mubarak, or Assad) are uneasy allies at best, and quite often natural enemies.

Quote :

to make concessions (including, returning virtually all captured territories [Oslo accords, if I recall correctly], in exchange for peace; unfortunately, what Arafat required as the essential concession, was extinction of Israel, and this turned out to be a deal-breaker).

Not correct. To the contrary, the Oslo accords were a change in the position of Fatah (Arafat's party), in that annihilation of Israel was removed from the party statutes. The accords comprised mutual recognition of the two states. But several PITAs were left out, including the Jewish settlements and Jerusalem. They were to be negotiated later.

The accords were supported by a small majority on both sides. IMO the accords died when Rabin was murdered, and the Israeli electorate moved to the right. There were other bouts of violence, too, like the Cave of the Patriarchs massacre. After that, the extremists on both sides won.

Quote :

it occurs to me that this represents a circumstance wherein the Middle East had been already conquered by Islam, while Europe was still in the process of attempted conquest by Islam (which attempt continued until the 17th Century).

There were several periods of Muslim conquest towards the West. The first one brought the Umayyads to Northern Africa and Spain, but halted at the battle of Tours (732). The expansion that went on from 1300 until 1683 (battle of Vienna) was by a different empire, the Ottomans, and in a different region (Anatolia and the Balkan). In the centuries in between -- the "Islamic Renaissance" -- there was an equilibrium, more or less.

Quote :

Also, Muslim law has a rather annoying version of "tolerance" toward non-Muslims

At least they had some legal rights. In the Christian world of that day, the "heathens" had none. To illustrate: after 1492 many Sephardic Jews fled from Spain to the Ottoman Empire.

Israel has as much right to exist as the US or the UK. If they want to defend themselves from attack by proactively eliminating terrorist cells within Palestine, who are you to say that they should let themselves be attacked and killed? The recent ceasefire deal that fell through failed because Israel bombed a facility that was smuggling guns into Palestine. Now why would they need guns for a ceasefire?

Btw that WND story cited the BBC as it's source. I would really like to know what internet news sites you consider to be "fair and unbiased" I know its nothing on american or british TV, its not anything that depicts extremist Islam to be dangerous in any way shape or form, so please what news sources do you people trust?

I'll be perfectly honest, Mike, at this stage I don't believe that they do have a right to exist. I think it was worth a try, and as far as the Brits were concerned, anything to relieve them of the mandate was a good idea - the Jews' terrorism against the British was definitely not helping the situation - but with a measure of hindsight, taking Palestinian land from the Palestinians to create an Israeli state had a tentative chance of success at best, and turns out to have been the worst idea of all.

Watching the Israelis create an attrocious apartheid state, and continue to steal mile after mile of Palestinian land, and manufacture a ghetto out of the Gaza Strip, and to perform countless attrocities against civilians, I'm afraid I no longer believe that the state of Israel does have a right to exist. In fact, the more I learn about the oppression they exercise and the attrocities that they continue perform, the more vehement my belief and vindicated I feel in believing it.

No, Mike, I don't believe it does have any right to anything. I'm tending more and more to side with the freedom fighters. It wasn't okay when the Nazis were doing these things in the 30s and 40s, and it's not okay for the Israelis to do the exact same things today. We removed the Nazis and we were right to do so.

You're equating Nazis with Jews? wow thats a stretch. I love how you would never mention the government that fully condones and sponsors terror, Hamas. A jew being blown up by a Palestinian suicide bomber doesn't even matter at all to you. The truth is, Israel became its own in 1948. The past is the past. What would you propose to do now? Let every jew in Israel die because you decide 60 years later that they don't have a right to exist anymore? You compare Jews to Nazis and then propose they die in a second holocaust. Nice.

Palestinians voted Hamas as their government. By doing so, they decided to make terrorism accepted against Israel. They actively try to kill Israeli civilians, but you only decide to see the Palestinian militants killed (anyone who decides to harm Israel is a militant, not a civilian). Not even children can be given the benefit of the doubt. By voting Hamas as the government, they are no longer seen as innocent. They are not freedom fighters, they are terrorists, their government decrees it. The majority of Palestinians would love to see every Jew dead and Israel wiped off of the map. By voting Hamas they agreed to this mission. Israel does not wish to eliminate Palestine, they want to defend their country and people. Israel does not perform suicide bombings against Palestinian civilians. Israel does not march into Palestine for the sole mission of killing as many civilians as possible. Palestine wishes to kill them all while Israel would rather not have to kill any. I can't believe you and I strongly believe that you are an anti-semite.

Quote from flymike91 :

Israel does not wish to eliminate Palestine, they want to defend their country and people. [...] Israel does not march into Palestine for the sole mission of killing as many civilians as possible.

http://www.lfsforum.net/showth ... ghlight=sharon#post723184

how exactly is voting any of these into power different from voting for hamas?

I didn't equate Jews with Nazis. I equated the actions of the state of Israel with the actions of the Nazis. And it's not a stretch of the imagination, the similarities in behaviour between the two are blatant. All you need to do is look. When you get a moment, pay attention to what is actually happening. Granted, it's not as easy for you with your far-right extremist media sources, but the facts about what is happening are out there. It's not my job to force you to educate yourself.

The Palestinians are fighting occupiers. They are not terrorists, no matter how often you refer to them as that. They are freedom fighters, fighting for their freedom. I don't care whether this is inconvenient for you or not. You can argue black is white til you're blue in the face, Mike, it won't make you right.

Your anti-semetic bullshit is ridiculous. Hamas' mission is to kill as many Israeli civilians as possible. Israel does NOT have the same mission against Palestine. I defy you to find a reputable news source that agrees with Hamas' mission to kill every man woman and child in Israel like you do. Hamas' ideals represent the vast majority of Palestinians. You would rather side with the people who would kill everyone in Israel rather than those who would rather not kill any. I don't think I've met anyone so ridiculously far left as you, even in California.

@shotglass: I don't see how that directly refutes my point. The assertions of mine you quoted are still true.

Don't pull that anti-semitic crap with me, buddy. It doesn't scare me one bit. I don't give a damn what religion or race anyone is, period.

If the Nazis had successfully invaded Britain and annexed any part of it in the 40s, and held on to it until now, I'm pretty damn sure I'd be picking them off in the streets like any other self-respecting Brit. You think your enthusiasm to kill Muslims, that haven't even invaded your country yet, wouldn't be fuelled a thousand-fold by their presence in the US as an armed and murderous occupying force? You already hate them for living in their own countries, and you're supporting the murder of over a million of them. Take a moment to relate to some realities, Mike. You can do it, if you try.

Realities? You support the murder of every Jew in Israel. Thats called anti-semitism, scared or not For Christ's sake this is worse than when Jtbo admitted to beating homosexuals. I support the elimination of Jihadist, extremist Muslims (not all muslims), the exact people you support.

Israel never took over Palestine, it was given to them by the allies so your analogy is pretty out there. Plus Israel has NEVER planned to kill every Muslim in Palestine unless all 1,000,000 become terrorists and actively try to kill Israeli civilians. you're being ****ing preposterous

Have some reading, Mike. You have a LOT of catching up to do.

Quote from http://www.nkusa.org/activities/Statements/20080131_nkpalestine.cfm :

NETUREI KARTA of THE ORTHODOX JEWRY
JERUSALEM, PALESTINE
Jan 31.08


URGENT PRESS RELEASE
In the past week the so-called Chief Rabbi of the so-called State of "Israel", Yona Metzger, has made vicious and provocative statements asserting that the Palestinians living in Gaza should be moved from their homes into the Sinai desert.
Yona Metzger is not an authentic Torah authority, despite the fact that he carries the so-called title of "Chief Rabbi". Chief rabbis of the Zionist State only carry legitimacy in the eyes of Zionist Jews. His status as a chief rabbi is not unlike the leadership of Theodor Herzl, who also wore a beard!
The State of "Israel" is illegitimate according to the Torah teachings. The founding of the State of "Israel" is in direct contradiction to the teachings of the Torah which forbids the establishment of a Jewish state and commands Jews to remain in exile until released from that exile by G-d Himself, without any human intervention, at which time all nations of the world will live together in peace.
We are likewise forbidden to rebel against any nation. We are to remain peaceful and loyal citizens, in every country in which we reside. Therefore to oppress the Palestinian people, harm them, steal their land, expel them, etc. is totally forbidden according to our Holy Torah.
The Rabbinical authorities universally have stood in vehement opposition to the ideology of Zionism and have opposed the state of "Israel" from its creation until the present day.
Palestinians have an inherent right to return to their land in historic Palestine and to establish their independent state in the entire Holy Land, which was forcefully taken from them by the Zionists. Indeed, many Gazans are refugees who were expelled from other areas of Palestine by the Zionists ever since 1948.
Chief Rabbis of the Zionist state, whether Metzger or anyone else, are merely very well-paid stooges of the Zionists and serve their Zionist masters without regard for the welfare of the Jewish People, the Palestinians, or any other nation in the world.
The Chief Rabbinate of the Zionist State, just as all Zionist institutions, has importance only because of its coercive power over the religious, economic and everyday life of the Jewish residents of Zionist occupied Palestine. Whoever recognizes and supports the Zionist State, even innocently, has been taken over by the heretical Zionist movement, no matter how large the halo that it is granted by supposed Jewish authorities.
Chief Rabbis, and other rabbis who support the existence of the Zionist state, are wicked emissaries of evil. Such "rabbis" promote hatred and war, and use their coercive powers to demand subservience of Jews to the Zionist enterprise. This description that we posit of such people has been the long-standing position of authentic rabbis for the last century.
Yona Metzger expresses feelings of inhumanity which originates in his loyalty to the cult of Zionism and is perfectly prepared to sacrifice Jewish lives on the altar of his idolatry, the State of "Israel." Any moral person would much prefer to see the Zionist warmongers, including Metzger, removed from the Holy Land. METZGER AND ALL ZIONIST RABBIS DO NOT REPRESENT THE JEWISH RELIGION.
We urgently appeal to the leaders of the world nations, especially the great powers, to stop supporting the Zionist regime. Many nations believe that supporting Zionism shows friendship to the Jewish People. This is incorrect! True friendship to the Jewish People can be demonstrated by saving all the peoples of the Middle East, including Jews, from the bloodthirsty machinations of the dangerous State of "Israel" and by dismantling the Zionist regime entirely, peacefully and speedily in our day.
May Almighty G-d protect us from the influence of Zionism in general, their evil warmongering bloodthirsty leaders, and from their wicked servants who call themselves "rabbis."

Quote from flymike91 :

Realities? You support the murder of every Jew in Israel. Thats called anti-semitism, scared or not For Christ's sake this is worse than when Jtbo admitted to beating homosexuals. I support the elimination of Jihadist, extremist Muslims (not all muslims), the exact people you support.

Israel never took over Palestine, it was given to them by the allies so your analogy is pretty out there.

No, Mike, I'm anti-zionist. Any reasonable person should be, and certainly any agnostic or atheist, as well as every orthodox and every secular Jew. I'm further from being racist or anti-semitic than you will ever, ever have the capacity to comprehend.

I don't support the murder of anyone. I support the right to life, and this is fundamental to my belief that the state of Israel should end its existence. The only hope of peace in this world begins with the end of zionist oppression and murder.

your passage is filled with anti-semetic terminology such as the "so-called Israel" It sounds further leftist than ANY "neocon" source I have ever cited. What would happen if Israel just opened the floodgates and eliminated it's borders while at the same time losing the support of the UN? THEY WOULD ALL DIE. Every country surrounding it has only withheld attack because of fear of war with the US. Given half a chance they would kill them all. So much for your "peaceful Palestinians." your source is as far from unbiased as Mein Kampf. Zionist rule never forced Palestinians out of their homes in 1948. the Allies gave them that land because it was practically uninhabited except by nomdic people You are obviously not against the murder of Israelis because elimination of Israel would mean certain death for every Jew there. They have been there for 60 years. It is theirs now. Britain took south Africa, shouldn't every white person there have to leave in your eyes?

Palestine would kill every Jew there regardless of whether they decided tomorrow to make Israel a non-country. What will happen to Israelis? They will be killed in the streets like dogs, far worse than anything Israel ever did to Palestinian civilians. They will be forced to live in even worse conditions than they made Palestinians live in. Hamas and the people of Palestine have vowed to kill every Jew. You support them. Israel has not vowed to kill every Palestinian. I support them.

Quote from David33 :

Do you mean that he did not tolerate extremist behavior, within Iraq? Or do you mean that he did not tolerate extremist behavior, outside Iraq? Or do you mean that he simply did not tolerate any extremist behavior, at all?

Quite an obtuse answer there. Nice start.

Quote :

The US is very far from "blindly supporting Israel." Instead, it has organized several peace conferences, and it has continued to pressure Israel to refrain from violence (including retaliation for the extensive Hamas rocket attacks from Lebanon, a while back), and to make concessions (including, returning virtually all captured territories [Oslo accords, if I recall correctly], in exchange for peace; unfortunately, what Arafat required as the essential concession, was extinction of Israel, and this turned out to be a deal-breaker).

"Pressuring Israel to refrain" is a polite, diplomatic term which is next to meaningless. It isn't the same as actually doing something. All this alleged "pressure" has done absolutely nothing to curb the building of settlements on Palestinian land; the building of the separation wall (deemed illegal by the UN); the airstrikes and every other military response that's completely disproportionate to what the IDF is apparently responding to. Telling Israel to back off, coupled with a threat to start attaching very short strings to the billions of dollars America hands Israel every year to prop up its economy and buy arms would be a start.

Quote :

Anyway, the USA is an ally of Israel (democracy, and all), and that means that it is willing to support Israel's defense of its existence. Some persons have said that the USA is too willing to pressure Israel to make concessions for peace, arguing that such concessions would be suicidal for Israel.

The US's "pressure" amounts to a pat on the back.

Quote :

As for "civilian neighborhoods," Palestinian civilians are its soldiers (as confusing as that may be, for everybody concerned), and while it would be nice if the Palestinians would be kind enough to identify who is the one that is making bombs and deploying them, and who is shooting rockets, and who is the peaceful civilian, and if these groups would separate themselves, and maybe wear uniforms, for the sake of conducting an orderly Geneva-Convention-style war, then things would perhaps work out more to your satisfaction. As it is, many Palestinians seem to prefer the confusion, since it gives them the opportunity to try to convince everybody that evil Israelis are attacking peaceful Palestinian civilians, and even to convince some foreigners to visit Palestine and to become human shields, themselves (presumably, so that the Palestinians can achieve their desire to have peace while living next door to Israel).

So, because Palestinian militias are made of civilians, it's ok to bomb houses indiscriminately because an attack may have been launched from the surrounding area? Worked great in Vietnam! Or, maybe it didn't. Perhaps these Palestinian militia wouldn't be so enraged if Israel were willing to retreat to its 1967 borders (as defined in UN Resolutions) and cease the expansion of Jewish settlements entirely. Perhaps they might moderate somewhat if they didn't feel like the world was completely ignoring them. Carving one nation out of another through a combination of sympathy & prophecy is one thing (which is in the past, a fait d'accompli, can't really reverse it now) but continuing to allow that nation to carve up & colonise its neighbour - its host - without any checks on its behaviour is intolerable.

Quote :

Perhaps you're right. Anyway, the pertinent problem is that Israelis want Israel to exist, and several of Israel's neighbors want Israel not to exist. Please, let me know when you think of a peaceful solution to that disagreement.

You'll be the first to know, after I cure cancer and invent a holodeck.

Palestine and the world at large have thought of a very simple solution: return conquered Palestinian land to Palestine. Stop treating an entire nation - which was carved up for Israel's benefit - as criminals and second-class humans. Israel seems to have no end of problems with that. Constantly responding to violence with even more violence hasn't actually accomplished anything in forty years - except continuing expansion and continuing reprisals from either side. Maybe the Israeli government thinks its worth it. Most counts put the Palestinian:Israeli death ratio at 4:1 after all. Hey, it's a win for Israel.

I really don't understand some people. Everyone knows it's wrong, that it's murder, for militants/terrorists/extremists to launch rockets at civilians from Palestine and detonate themselves on buses in Tel Aviv; but flip it around and mention Israel sending attack choppers and tanks into Palestinian streets and destroying houses, apartment blocks, businesses, killing in the same indiscriminate fashion as a Katyusha rocket or suicide bomb, expanding their territory through force long after the war supposedly ended, annexing all the arable land and water sources, cutting people off from their neighbours and families and suddenly rationalisations and justifications come gushing out of people like a burst oil well.

Quote :

And btw, if you want to be really funny, you should perhaps henceforth spell "FOX" as "faux;" many persons do that, so I guess that it would be a great party trick.

Really, stop it. You're killing me with laughter here.

Quote :

OK; no Frontpagemag, no WND and no Fox News, as sources of information (also, no op-ed pieces from Bill O'Reilly). Anybody else?

Three particularly red-necked, one-sided media outlets of the hundreds of millions of print, tv and web news sources in the world. Yeah, I guess there's nowhere left to get my fix of neo-con apologetics & flag-waving. Oh wait, the OT forum. Of course!

Oddly enough Haaretz, the main Israeli media outlet, is a lot more critical of Israeli policy than anything you'll find in the states and very eye-opening. Some Haaretz editorials & articles make the Huffington Post (not one fo my favourites, ftr) look positively Zionist. Going by Haaretz and a few other Israeli outlets, it would appear that most Israelis are pretty moderate in their views on Palestine - a lot more so than the people who are supposedly protecting their interests.

Quote :

The reason was that the purpose of the war, was to kick Saddam out of Kuwait, and doing more than this (removing him from power in Iraq), would be difficult and, in any case, not seemingly supported by the UN and by the coalition of allies that had been formed with the intent to respond to Saddam's invasion of Kuwait. The result was a continuation of problems with Saddam, that became urgent (specifically, wrt his continuing enmity and pursuit of weapons, and the incipient failure of the "containment" of him [unpopular "sanctions," and the greatly corrupted "oil for food" program]), following the 9/11 event.

Funny how invading another country without a legitimate reason (grr, bad pet dictator) earned Saddam a quick, brutal invasion & ten years of sanctions (which claimed at least half a million lives through disease and starvation - Madeleine Albright said it was "worth it") and "containment" missile attacks while doing absolutely nothing (nothing that he was accused of, anyway) earned him a full-scale long occupation, show trial (funnily enough one of his major crimes, his criminal use of WMD, purchased from Guess Who, against Iran wasn't even on the charge sheet) and rapid execution.

Some mod please rename this thread to:

Can of worms [that has been opened]

Quote from flymike91 :

your passage is filled with anti-semetic terminology such as the "so-called Israel" It sounds further leftist than ANY "neocon" source I have ever cited. What would happen if Israel just opened the floodgates and eliminated it's borders while at the same time losing the support of the UN? THEY WOULD ALL DIE. Every country surrounding it has only withheld attack because of fear of war with the US. Given half a chance they would kill them all. So much for your "peaceful Palestinians." your source is as far from unbiased as Mein Kampf. Zionist rule never forced Palestinians out of their homes in 1948. the Allies gave them that land because it was practically uninhabited except by nomdic people You are obviously not against the murder of Israelis because elimination of Israel would mean certain death for every Jew there. They have been there for 60 years. It is theirs now. Britain took south Africa, shouldn't every white person there have to leave in your eyes?

Just take out a moment of your time, Mike, to soak up the source of that article.

No, wait, let me make it a bit easier.. click here:- http://www.nkusa.org/activitie ... /20080131_nkpalestine.cfm

Bloody hell, Mike, get with it will ya? Geez

[edit to address Mike's addendum]

Quote :

Palestine would kill every Jew there regardless of whether they decided tomorrow to make Israel a non-country. What will happen to Israelis? They will be killed in the streets like dogs, far worse than anything Israel ever did to Palestinian civilians. They will be forced to live in even worse conditions than they made Palestinians live in. Hamas and the people of Palestine have vowed to kill every Jew. You support them. Israel has not vowed to kill every Palestinian. I support them.

Either you're a blatant liar, or you're pig ignorant and pretending you're not. Which is it, Mike?

A 60 year history is a moment in time, in the history of this region. Yes, let's undo the damage before it properly sets in and get rid of the zionist state of Israel!

Get with it? Get with the sanctioned murder of every Jew in Israel? No thanks, I'll pass.

stop ****ing shoving that article down my throat. You obviously love the people who have vowed to murder every single Jew in Israel. I get it, but I refuse to get with it.