Quote from The Moose :

If all people are worried about is the presentation then they can forget enjoying 1.03. I doubt very much that the UI is going to change at all. (apart from the multiplayer lobby needing some work, i see no need to change a thing)

That really wasn't/isn't the problem with nKPro....the main problems are FPS, join lag and multiplayer(for some..due to FPS)
If that is fixed then that will do for me.

If your looking for polish then you might as well just give up on it now.

Nobody means change the UI. What people mean is just fix the BUGS in it

The trouble with NKP is that it is just full of bugs that CTD. During my hour test I even needed to do a complete reboot because after one CTD while running a lap NKP refused to start again until a rebooted.

This is what people mean by polish. Does not matter WHAT the UI looks like, it just has to work. As I said in RSC, to fix the UI CTDs would take any dev with good attention to detail far less than a week. The stupid UI bugs just make NKP look sloppy

Quote from Woz :

As I said in RSC, to fix the UI CTDs would take any dev with good attention to detail far less than a week. The stupid UI bugs just make NKP look sloppy

What's causing the UI to crash for you guys then? It's perfectly stable for me.
You are using .net3.5?

It's simply not crashing on me either in the UI or in Game.

If you let me know what things in the UI are causing it to crash i'll get them added to the bugtracker.

Quote from The Moose :

What's causing the UI to crash for you guys then? It's perfectly stable for me.
You are using .net3.5?

Whenever I try and start driving with shaders unticked or the bumble bee sound engine turned on it CTDs.

Quote from ajp71 :

or the bumble bee sound engine turned on it CTDs.

lol, you mean Scazzato? That isn't supported with this.

I'll check out the shaders issue.

Quote from The Moose :

lol, you mean Scazzato? That isn't supported with this.

Then why in the world that option is there?

I have NET 3.0 (and 1.1 & 2.0) but no 3.5 and I've never managed to get CTD yet. Not even if I turn off shaders.

With overall presentation I meant kind of everything, not only UI.

Quote from The Moose :

What's causing the UI to crash for you guys then? It's perfectly stable for me.
You are using .net3.5?

It's simply not crashing on me either in the UI or in Game.

If you let me know what things in the UI are causing it to crash i'll get them added to the bugtracker.

I have had the UI fall over just clicking around the UI buttons on form etc. As I said before, it feels like Kunos uses the UI is a specific way/order when he tests and if you use it in a different way/order you get problems.

I know one bug without the need to check. On fresh install go to the driver screen and try and select settings/helmet etc before you hit create driver. Bang then CTD. A "good" developer would disable interface that can't be clicked yet in a given context. Only found as assumed driver context was ready as everything enabled.

Can't be bothered to detail the rest as that one shows Kunos can't even be bothered to think what interface elements should be disabled when they should not be selected. Just shows complete lack of testing or thought about UI.

This is what I mean by polish. Thinking what users might click when they are not meant to then stopping them from doing so. Simple thought patterns that ANY developer should have. I say this with 20 years dev experience and having to plug that sort of hole myself.

BTW: My rig has full .NET development environment fully patched as I dev for a living.

messege from Kunos
http://forum.rscnet.org/showpo ... 3767150&postcount=219

Quote from kunos :

Hi All,

A few words about the current situation about netKar PRO.
We've just released this F1 thing for our customer SingTel. The aim of the project was to provide the asian guys with a mean of learning the track (and what a difficult and unforgiving track it is) at home before trying it on the motion simulator.
SingTel, the main sponsor for F1 in Singapore understood BRD's vision of pure simulation, and I can assure you, once you're strapped into a 1:1 scale race car, with your helmet and race suit on it is pretty hard to remember you are not racing for real.
Having said that, driving an F1 on the streets of Singapore is a VERY hard task, add no TC in 2008 cars, a steering wheel technology capable of WAY more torque that we can experience with "normal" steering wheels and a totaly wild motion simulator, and you will get a picture of what a driver will have to face when sitting in one of our simulators.
SingTel was not scared of this and did go for the "FULL" experience. We should be all glad there are companies like these. They do believe in the very word "simulation" as we all do, they put their name on it and they support it in a concrete and tangible way.
Even the best of the sim drivers would need 5-6 laps to get used to the swings of the motion sim, add 5-6 laps to learn the track and you will get easily to more than 10 laps to start to really push. 10 laps on singapore while learning is easily 30 minutes on the motion platform, and that is WAY more than anyone of us will be allowed to. So the download comes in, get it, learn the track, and once the simulator comes close to your place, book your slot and get ready to enjoy a totaly new and unique experience.
The idea is just awesome for me, they could've told us "put ABS on it", "put TC on it", "make it more grippy at low speed", "turn off tire temperature simulation"... they just didn't, they've told us, "give people a way to learn to drive and understand what F1 is about".
The only downside for this project was the schedule, it was REALLY, SERIOUSLY tight, i think it is a decent free product afterall.

Back to the important stuff. The F1 model is a result of BRD/netKar involvement into developing a simulator for an F1 top team (that I can't name for obvious reasons). We started working on this last october. The car you drive in the demo is a direct result of the work done with this team.
The very source code to build the Singapore version is the same. I literally walked out from the F1 team R&D office with my laptop and source code, took a plane to Italy, get 1 day rest, then fly to Singapore and prepare the SingTel build.
The main differences from the SUPER DUPER PROFESSIONAL version are:

- The integrator runs at "netKar PRO" speed of 333hz, slower than the F1 simulator one
- The differential is a standard "netKar PRO" salisbury and not the F1 electronic differential. The algorhythm governing it is not part of our F1 partner asset and so we cannot disclose it outside. Plus it would have tables with almost 100 parameters to set and I already imagine the mass suicide of novice users at the simple first glance of that setup screen. :cool:
- Suspension layouts are different. Again, for obvious NDA reasons.
- Engine mapping is different. But within 2% accurate
- Aero is a bit "optimistic", for the F1 team we've been working with a "medium downforce package" data. I knew Singapore needs ultra downforce settings so I have tweaked the downforce/drag curves by hand as a "best guess" for the scenario.

Some notes about the car handling.

Force feedback is vastly different from 1.0.2 . If the F1 engineers says it is right and the F1 drivers say it is right. I think I will call it right and live with it . HINT HINT.. reduce caster to get closer to 1.0.2 steering feel

Braking is tricky. The point is... you can't believe how low engine braking they are using this year. The engineers' point is: "To brake the car, use the brake, not the engine." Fair enough. I miss the "throttle off turn in " a lot..but again, I guess if the real drivers live with it, we'll have to live with it too.

To end this long post.. on the good news.
SingTel was last short term project to complete for a private customer this year. Of course we still have our F1 collaboration going on, that takes lots lots of time but considering the improvements that brings to the project I am quite happy everytime I have the chance to interact with these guys.
This means the summer is all free to work back on the consumers versions.
Work on 1.0.3 release will start on the second week of May, and we should have a download available before the hot italian weather will start hammering down.
We'll also have a smaller new single seater car added for free later this summer thanks to a new deal we've concluded earlier this year. This will make for a more realistic "entry level" car instead of the F1600 because it has wings and thus requires a more similar driving style to the other cars in netKar PRO.
Later next month we'll also announce the plans for new version of the netKar PRO. I might be a big surprise for many but I think we're looking into a very interesting 2009 for this project.

and to really finish.. WTF??? 1:44 ???? I was on 1:51 and I thought i was an ace!

Later next month we'll also announce the plans for new version of the netKar PRO

"2.0"?

-

Quote from deggis :

Later next month we'll also announce the plans for new version of the netKar PRO

"2.0"?

-

doubt it. I dont think hes that stupid. apparently the F1 team hes been working with is toyota. dunno how true that is. his guessing about drag explains why we can do about 330kph with max wings

Quote :

a totaly wild motion simulator

Quote :

i think it is a decent free product afterall.

Quote :

developing a simulator for an F1 top team (that I can't name for obvious reasons).

Quote :

I have tweaked the downforce/drag curves by hand as a "best guess" for the scenario.

ha...ha...ha
why do i always feel like he thinks his customers are idiots?

Quote from Shotglass :

ha...ha...ha
why do i always feel like he thinks his customers are idiots?

What's that got to do with the quotes you ..err...quoted.

I bet the motion simulator is wild.

It is a pretty good product for free.

He is developing an F1 sim for a team he can't name (and it isn't Toyota)

How exactly is that treating us like idiots?

Quote from The Moose :

I bet the motion simulator is wild.

you must have seen different videos of it then since waht ive seen of it was a completely pointless thing that makes it impossible to simulate forces acting on the car... singtel could have spent a tenth of the 300k and would have gotten a better sim (301)

Quote :

It is a pretty good product for free.

i think its a step down from namie and it wasnt exactly developed for free either

Quote :

He is developing an F1 sim for a team he can't name (and it isn't Toyota)

yeah well ok turns out it actually wasnt toyota ill concede that

Quote :

How exactly is that treating us like idiots?

well theres the lack of truth in many of these quotes but more importantly its how he always finds time to write an entire novel whenever he has something he developed either in his free time or mostly to somebody elses benefit but waits for jaap to write excuses for him and claim that he hasnt got time to write anything whenever he has to face perfectly valid critcism for the the mess hes left his paying customers with for far too long

Quote from Shotglass :

i think its a step down from namie and it wasnt exactly developed for free either

Nahh..your so wrong there. So wrong.

Quote from Shotglass :

its how he always finds time to write an entire novel whenever he has something he developed either in his free time or mostly to somebody elses benefit but waits for jaap to write excuses for him and claim that he hasnt got time to write anything whenever he has to face perfectly valid critcism for the the mess hes left his paying customers with for far too long

I cant argue with you on that one

Namie was awesome and had much more playability than this. Although for those with a license who can run on other tracks its a different story. Also its Williams. Better be sick of being wrong :P

Quote from sil3ntwar :

Although for those with a license who can run on other tracks its a different story.

That's what i was referring to

ajp could you please show us what a personal attack on rscnet looks like? id really like to see their moderation in action

Quote from Shotglass :

ajp could you please show us what a personal attack on rscnet looks like? id really like to see their moderation in action

This was what they took offense at:

Quote :

- Work on nK release 1.03 isn't going to start for another month and if it isn't out by Summer it'll be too hot for him to work.

- Kunos is working for an F1 team, who'll easily be able to persuade him to work for them seeing as he seems to enjoy taking peoples' money.

Although I think actually what I did that caused offense was asking where the hillclimb car/track had gone and questioning whether announcing a new version was correct before finishing the first.

Unfortunatley just deleting a post causes far more chaos than simply adding a comment, none of that quote I've been given back was too damaging or offensive to have on a public forum with an admin note next to it.

Out of interest: How does this compare with the BF1 in LFS?

Quote from frokki :

Out of interest: How does this compare with the BF1 in LFS?

Much more stable and spinning out under power is almost impossible anywhere other than out of a hairpin, you really can throw it around like a go kart as though the thing is on rails. There have been major changes to the cars in the last two years though and the 2006 cars weren't designed to be driven without TC. Overall it is much more fun to drive than the BF1 and far more satisfying, more like an oversized FO8.

Quote from ajp71 :

Much more stable and spinning out under power is almost impossible anywhere other than out of a hairpin, you really can throw it around like a go kart as though the thing is on rails. There have been major changes to the cars in the last two years though and the 2006 cars weren't designed to be driven without TC. Overall it is much more fun to drive than the BF1 and far more satisfying, more like an oversized FO8.

i beg to differ
imho for precisely those reasons its horrible to drive no fun at all and feels completely dead

Quote from Shotglass :

i beg to differ
imho for precisely those reasons its horrible to drive no fun at all and feels completely dead

I beg to differ with both of you

It's easy enough to spin out under acceleration even in 3rd gear corners if it's set up to go fast. But yes, its pretty much glued to the floor at high speed, as indeed it bloody well should be.

Feels completely dead? Not the car I'm driving. You really have to be pushing it right on the limit to go fast, and one your on that limit it's far from dead or unexciting. (as far as any F1 sim is concerned. If you don't like high downforce winged cars though then is going to feel unexciting. '66 Lotus it aint )

It's a far more satisfying drive than the BF1.

Quote from ajp71 :

- Work on nK release 1.03 isn't going to start for another month and if it isn't out by Summer it'll be too hot for him to work.

- Kunos is working for an F1 team, who'll easily be able to persuade him to work for them seeing as he seems to enjoy taking peoples' money.

I can see why that didn't go down well at RSC. You surely cant be surprised, you've been there long enough.

I'd take a guess that the kunosF1 manages to create quite a lot more downforce and less drag than the F1 car it's based on. But kunos himself said that the aero was just a guess, prolly just a guess that wasn't tested...

It is a blast to drive on Spa. Steering lag means 1024x800+uglyness to make it playable but it is fun. Corner entry is or feels like pure arcade because the rear is impossible to make step out. The car also understeers a lot when not on throttle but that's hopefully a setup issue.

Taking some wing off (25/20) and putting some more arbs on the rear makes it more playful, especially on higher speeds. Unlike with the BF1, Nkpro has tracks that actually work with this car and as I said, the car feels quite enjoyable on tracks like Spa or montreal. The car has the proper feel of grip what one might expect from an F1 car but as ajp (?) mentioned, it is somewhat strange mix of arcade and sim :/

Quote from Hyperactive :

Steering lag means 1024x800+uglyness to make it playable but it is fun.

Have you tried everything that was suggested to you at RSC?

I'm not saying its not incurable for you, but it appears that nearly everyone else, even those that had performance issues with 1.02, have this running fine (especially on addon tracks). You really should be able to run it with everything maxed out, plenty of AA/AF and no steering lag whatsoever.


As for the car. It will certainly be better when he gets the downforce/drag issue tightened up, but even in it's present state its better than the BF1 to drive.
Yes..it is very difficult to get loose on corner entry. I'm still not sure if that's a setup thing or not... more tweaking to do tonight.

Still, if he gets it finished properly for the 1.03 release then I'm going to be very happy. The track editing tools will need releasing too We need more F1 suited tracks now.

Quote from The Moose :

Have you tried everything that was suggested to you at RSC?

I'm not saying its not incurable for you, but it appears that nearly everyone else, even those that had performance issues with 1.02, have this running fine (especially on addon tracks). You really should be able to run it with everything maxed out, plenty of AA/AF and no steering lag whatsoever.

I already did quite a lot when the nk was originally launched and so far nothing has helped. It is just steering lag though, everything else is smooth and fine at higher res :/

Quote from The Moose :

It's a far more satisfying drive than the BF1.

ever driven the bf1 without tc for a prolonged time? feels far more alive to me
if you can come up with a setup you consider lively that works on crema i might reconsider but atm it just feels dead and weightless like everything ive driven in nkp so far