First of all, I am sorry for posting in the "Main" section of LFS, but I wanted this post to been seen and for comments to come back. I didn;t want it to disappear in the midst of the League Section.

Bascially, Me, P1lot and Three Jump are running a league, based on the same as Germany's for ESL. Currently we are running a free league where prizes are there to be won, real prizes also. Now, As I am Master League Admin for UK, questions are being asked of the integrity of the league, not the driving standards, just general interest, as they do look at Germany's league as in contrast.

Now for one, I feel this is unfair, as Germany have a 3yr head start on the UK for Leagues and also the UK in General is far behind the support for Professional Online Gaming Leagues than Germany.

This is no dig at Germany, just a General question due to the LFSWorld License Pie.

Now if you look at the License Pie of the LFS Community, UK has a very large propotion of this, 15.4% behind Germanys 20.7%. Now atm UK struggles to get 20 drivers for a free season, but from next season we are expected to run either a free season with no prizes, a EAS with reduced prizes and Premium Account required, or EPS Season with Maximum Prizes available and Premium Account required. Now, the way I look at it is, you take time out to race, have some fun, why should you not be rewarded for this. Before I finish this is not a plug for the league or the EPS season or to get you to spend money, but its for this reason.

United Kingdom holds the second largest propotion of the LFS community, yet we only get 18/19 drivers for the league, where as Germany has over 80 drivers for the EAS League, then has 20 drivers for EPS League, and also has a Qualification period to decide who is driving in the EPS Season.

Is the UK scene not interested in Professional Online Racing Leagues?

Are the UK Drivers not that bothered ( sorry for the wording, its just what i see )

I know people will say straight away, its your car choice, its this its that. Well, the car choice is my fault. I opted for something different. I didn;t opt for GTR's for Formula's as everybody is doing this, I wanted something different.

SO Please ( I know the drivers from ESL will post and say what they feel ) but I would like people not in the ESL to post, tell me what you would want from a league. At the end of the day, you take time out from your lifes to race and have fun, so why not race in a league you help create.

PS - I refuse to make everybody happy

Thank you for reading

Best Regards

Fordie

I would love to be a part of a league. Teh feeling of competetion is a great buzz. But I have yet to get familiar with any league fraternaties.

But, as the above postee mentioned, Time can be hard to come by.

I can afford to waste a few hours hear and there when the kids are asleep or I have a day to myself but I cannot commit to a set time and place with any consistency due to work and family commitments. It has taken many months just to get competative with the car of my choice (FZR) to get to grips with another for anything than just a change of scenery would take too long for me to make the races anything other than just frustrating that I can't keep up with the fast guys. I would be the minardi of a group. In it for the ride but never getting near the top.

I think Germany has a slightly different mentality when it comes to this kind of thing. That tuetonic organization pulls together and they take it very very serioulsy. Possible, although I do know some fellow brits do take these things seriously, our mentallity is just not the same.

If there was a way I could cut down on the prep time, develop a setup that I knew was competative and cut down on the amount of dedicated time given to such a venture I might be coersed into participating. But I would never be able to fill an entire race calender and therefor would never be a true part of a league.

I have to wait for a weekend where the kids are away and the missus won't bother me. And there really are once in a blue moon. So I can only ever see myself being a recreational racer at best.

Shame, but such is life.

Keep up the good work though, I'm sure you'll get enough takers.

You know what Shaun?, I was thinking the EXACT same thing, why, like you say the UK has a big contingent of LFS drivers, why the lack of ESL takers?.
Well at least this time round it can't be blamed on car choice because it was open to all to decide.
Maybe it is due to either the time issue, which isnt really a problem for me ATM, but it can, and sometimes does change which is what happened last season, my personal life became busy, I didnt have the time to commit, and had to pull out.
But, the main reason I believe it to be is what Kev touched on, the feeling that the ESL league is maybe to "much" for the slower driver, thats not the case at all, we have drivers of all speeds from the very quick, to the not so quick, heck I aint that quick and I can finish 5-6th, people must realise that races arent won just on fast lap times, there is more to it than that, its about consistancy, its about being a clean driver, its about pitting and pit strategy.
Any UK drivers on here ask yourselves these questions, if the answers to a few are yes, then ask yourself why you arent racing in the ESL league .

1) Do you want clean, close, competitive racing with other UK drivers?
2) Do you want to race in a nice, friendly atmosphere with some of the UK's best drivers?.
3) Can you race clean and consistant?, you don't have to be an "alien"
4) Can you commit 2 hours every 2 weeks to racing? (I isnt alot)
5) Do you want to race for prizes?

Its a great, great league, with some very nice and friendly drivers, its well organised and well run, we should really be seeing more than the amount of drivers we get TBH.

Come on UK drivers, its a great league.

Dan,

People shouldn't be daunted by a car they haven't driven before. I hadn't driven the FXO until a couple of weeks before first event. You get up to speed very quickly after a couple of evenings racing.

There are aliens at the front, of course, but battles galore thoughout the field. Very enjoyable.

IMO, the biggest factor for most people, and myself, is that they think they aren't fast enough and that only aliens can apply. It is mostly the fact that these are 'official' tournaments that makes them a bit daunting too.

As I said in my reply on the ESL forum, if there were more grids for a wider ability of drivers this might even the field, but i understand this isn't possible until you ahve enough drivers in the first place.

Anyway, I am interested, and I am sure a few of the mid-pack dSRC guys would be too. ATM I am holding out from joining these more official leagues until I finish uni, then I will probably enter and practice alot more.

Another reason I havent joined a league so far, is that I have a good clean and competitive team in which I race already.

Quote from danowat :

4) Can you commit 2 hours every 2 weeks to racing? (I isnt alot)

Dan,

This is the main problem with me, and i think many other drivers. Like i play lfs for a good 5 - 6 hours a week if not more, But this is when im not busy. I dont have a fixed schedule so i can never say i will be playing then for this long.

Maybe next year guys.

Quote from mrbogeyman :

IMO, the biggest factor for most people, and myself, is that they think they aren't fast enough and that only aliens can apply. It is mostly the fact that these are 'official' tournaments that makes them a bit daunting too.

As I said in my reply on the ESL forum, if there were more grids for a wider ability of drivers this might even the field, but i understand this isn't possible until you ahve enough drivers in the first place.

Anyway, I am interested, and I am sure a few of the mid-pack dSRC guys would be too. ATM I am holding out from joining these more official leagues until I finish uni, then I will probably enter and practice alot more.

Another reason I havent joined a league so far, is that I have a good clean and competitive team in which I race already.

That is exactly what I meant, and what I believe to be a big reason why it doesnt attract more drivers.

I am not overly fast, and I still have enjoyable competitive races, there are drivers of all skill levels racing in the ESL ERCC ATM.

I would say if anyone is thinking the reason the can't/won't join because they are not "alien" enough, then don't let that stop you

Dan,

I would say that, in theory, I am very interested in 'Professional Online Racing Leagues', but time is difficult to find for league racing right now, and the ESL League tends to choose cars that I'm basically **** at. Not just haven't driven, more can't drive

However, as there are physics patches over the horizon I can see some of the cars I struggle with being a bit more 'true to life' and therefore being intuitive to drive. Then I will drive them more and own you all. Well, Kev at least. And Fordie. hmmmm

A lot of things put me off joining this season, there is a number of things I don't agree with, things there perhaps "for the sake of it", but I'm fairly glad I did. I just think things have to be kept as simple as possible to get the maximum number of participants. Of course the time commitment is part of it, but finding the time at the right time is harder still
Certainly forcing people to pay for a premium account will put more people off.

Quote from Clownpaint :

I think it actually has a lot to do with the league not getting enough exposure.

I agree with that too. I always knew about the German leagues, but somehow ESL UK didn't really show up on the radar much. Sure if you knew and talked to the right people you would know about it (like I do from my team mates), but otherwise your average LFS racer might not have a clue it exists.

In my experience, I have read about alot less of league races since LFS-World changed format. The old LFS-World used to be my gateway to LFS-News and reading race/league reports. TBH it is my own fault for being lazy and not checking the likes of LFS-News and the league sections on this forum.

I dunno, if I were to join a league it would be to race competitively with a car I can drive on essentially any track. It would be nice for the league to have races say every two weeks or so, any longer would be too long and any less might be inconvenient. Timingwise after working hrs on any day.

Main reason for not joining ESL was that I can't dedicate enough time to practice in order to be competitive throughout the season. It's not just about couple of hours on a race night for me, I look to a league in a similar way a real-life professional would I suppose. One league at a time with enough time available to make joining worth my time

ESL is a large organistation running leagues, but its not the only one. I think Time restraints are one of the main reasons people dont join (if they havent as expected).

Quote :

Is the UK scene not interested in Professional Online Racing Leagues?

Many organistations run "Professional Online Racing Leagues", and many may be offended by that comment if taken in the wrong context, for example, people may believe that because they are not running in an ESL league but are competing in another league, it may not be "Professional Online Racing", when in truth and fact it could it / could be / whatever..

Quote :

Are the UK Drivers not that bothered ( sorry for the wording, its just what i see )

Yep, See your point Fordie and the answers you want to get, but again, I dont believe UK drivers are NOT bothered, but personally, (and sorry), I find ESL Too Corporate, too daunting for the newer driver, the guy who wants to be in a competition, has the time, but may feel that they are too slow, or too new, or too inexperienced to race with people in ESL Leagues.

I find the ESL Site dauntingly complicated, particularly for someone new to the game..., but expecially to me. Thats just me and this is all just one persons opinion, which I believe is what was asked for when the thread was posted in the general LFS topics area.

Too right too, as leagues can and do get lost within the overcrowded Leagues & Events section of the forums, and well done for opening yourself to comments that may not be what you want to hear.

I dont feel its anything to do with UK drivers not being bothers, or not interesting in Professional Racing Leagues. I like to think I have a good grasp of whats going on in the Professional Online Events arena of LFS, but I didnt know this league was running at this time.

EAS?
EPS?

NOTE: The above post are my OPINIONS only, they do not represent ANYONE or ANYTHING other than ME personally.

Cheers Fordie
Funny, I was about to PM you today too!

Quote from mkinnov8 :

I find the ESL Site dauntingly complicated, particularly for someone new to the game..., but expecially to me.

I agree, this is my 2nd ESL league, and even I find the ESL site, and the sign-up process needlessly complicated.

TBH, Its a shame we can't have a UK based splinter group, still under the ESL "umberella" but with a cleaner site, easier sign up process and some more advertisment for the UK side of things.

Dan,

Am very interested in leagues, am currently trying to get into a F1C F1 season championship at the mo.

I did once try to qualify for a ESL league race series but qualified about 3 places outside the max people you were taking, got the impression I wasnt fast enough for the ESL and i havent tried again since.

The skill level of drivers in this league is of a high standard which I think can be very of putting for the average driver.
It is a first class league that is excellently run but to be in the way or constantly running at the back can be very demoralising
Its lack of mediocre drivers is probably at the moment its biggest hurdle to overcome

Best of luck
Hope it becomes as big as it should be

Gary

For me it was on the radar but my non alien status prevented me from looking in to it more. Im regretting this now as we have held much practice on the dSRC servers for these FXO races and ive had a lotta fun and not done too bad tbh.

I shoulda known this as after hating the FXO in S1 it has been my TBO car of choice in S2 so far. (RIP S1 RB4 :guilty: ) and ive even managed to get in the top 10 on the FXO rank in HLVC.

I will certainly look more into the future leagues altho i like others have been baffled by the ESL site.

Don't worry LFS UK! It's always like that with leagues, or at least, often like that. As an Active member of the North American League, I can tell that it's not easy to get people in a league. On the other hand, at each season we started we had more members than the previous season. I think the first and second season were no more than 30 members. The third is officially (not everybody shows up) 71 members. The fourth season, beggining soon, will be even bigger.

Basically it only takes time. You can try to adversite or anything but I wouldn't recommend it, it's not worth the job. People will know realise that you are there after a couple of time ("Omg what's that? Is it new? where does it com from? - No dude... it's been here for a year.").

Besides, I don't think the LFS pie means much. I mean... the information is true, no doubt about that, but the % of people in each country that wants to race in a league must be around 10%, not more than that. In that 10% you have alot of people that prolly don't even know the league, which leave you basically with the users of this forum. In NA, we got 17.1% or a bit more cause the pie doesn't include Mexico, but let's say it's around 17. That % is around 12k racers (not sure, of course). But okay... on that 12k we don't even have 100 in NAL.

That's because in that 12k there's

- Alot of people not racing anymore
- Alot of people racing once a week, not enough for a league.
- Another good bunch of people that just don't want to race in a league.
- Another good bunch of people that would race if they'd know the league
- A little pack of people that race in the league...

if one of the so different germans can throw in his 2 cents too:

first of all i dont think that we are that different when it comes to competitive racing, the major problem probably is really that just not enough people know about a uk esl league.
here in germany its kind of normal to play in the esl and the eas is running in its 8th season now, there are reports on giga and on many esport sites, so much more people know about. cause of that there are 4 grids now and the eps and the speed is wide-spread. alien types drive in the eps or in the highest grid and the medium fast drives in the lower ones. sure its no beginner league, but for what do we have olfsl and other?
if you once have tried to compete in any league you should be good to go for esl too.

the esl-site though is really a bit of a mess sometimes, but you can get used to that too.

so i just think get the word out and there will be more drivers every season, just keep the ball rolling.

and @ kev: have you ever heard that you can take your pc with you if you go study somewhere??

edit:
i forgot something: the premium account really shouldnt be a reason to not join as it only costs 2€ per month, that really shouldnt be too much for anybody...

It took me a while to figure the ESL site out, just remember that the navigation on the left changes depending on what you're looking at.

So only when you have already chosen LFS game do you see the option to choose league on left.
Only when you have chosen league do you see rankings, members, etc. on left

Quote from thisnameistaken :

I also wonder if the UK tradition of attending a university that's a long way from home has anything to do with it. Do Germans tend to stay nearer to home and take courses at a local institution? If so those Germans of university age might be more available for league racing.

germans stick to the "tradition" to move their homes to the city where the university is they are attending .

I can only agree that it takes time for a league to get more people... I started the Czech national league 2 years back with 11 racers. Time went by, their numbers increased and the last league had 75 racers singned in (68 participated at least once)...

So heads up, keep up the good work and people will come...

Quote from Fordman :

Are the UK Drivers not that bothered ( sorry for the wording, its just what i see )

Do I look bovvered?







Seriously, Fordman, good post.

Personally my reasons for not having joined your league or any other league in LFS to date line up with the reasons Kev and others have listed: (possibly foolish) perception that non-aliens would be less welcome, and simply not being able to guarantee attendance at the league race times. I know that must sound nuts to someone in their late teens or twenty-something, and at uni with plenty of time on their hands, but some of us old farts must grab our LFS time at weird and opportunistic hours.

If my online racing life was dominated by wreckers and idiots I probably would have joined a league out of desperation. But in fact with LFS I find that I get lucky remarkably often and find a good server full of polite, sensible, non-arseholes, and proceed to have a great session of impromptu racing.

I guess actually there's one other reason for my not joining a league and that would be previous experience (with other racing games) indicating that the online league experience can still include hotheadedness, idiocy, and bad feelings, just like pickup races. Not always, of course, but often enough to be disappointing.

Anyway, despite the fact that I can't in good conscience sign up for your league, I absolutely wish you all the best with it.

Cheers,
Jason.

Well i'm sorry its only for UK racers

I'm an admin for the Australasian League which originally started under the umbrella of the Endurance League. We get quite good numbers, up to 80 racers for some races.
I'm not sure how relevant it is to your situation but I think one reason we get the numbers we do is that the aussie community is very tight-knit centralised around the ARSE forum. The majority of LFS racers here visit ARSE and it doesn't take long for new people to be told to check it out and to check out the AAL. Everyone gets to know each other and you start to get a real community feel.

From a personal point of view I play videogames "for the crack" and I don't really enjoy organised competition, so I don't tend to join clans/teams when I start playing a new game, although peversely I do like clean, polite organised teamwork especially in fps games

From an LFS perspective, I don't own a wheel, am not in a position to spend money on one atm, and since i am an average of 5-10 seconds slower than the leader on most servers I join, thus I regard stuff like the ESL as out of my league if you'll excuse the pun.

Time is probably the major factor, I graduate from university in 10 weeks time, and have more work than I can deal with. I tend to work for a while then spend 20 mins - half an hour reading various bulletin boards than I suscribe to by way of a break. Certainly until July I would not be in a position to commit to playing a game at a certain time and a certain place, even if it were only for half an hour.


As an aside I would say that being away at a university is a factor, since it presents a high workload and a great many social opportunities.
Also, certainly for those in the University of Derby's halls just connecting could be a major problem. The Halls are served by the uni's backbone connection and just about all the ports are firewalled to prevent p2p activity and possible unpleasant implications for the uni, thus online gaming is largely impossible for a big proportion of the first years, who arguably are the ones who haven't developed solid friendships with their peers and don't have a good knowledge of the social life in the city, so are perhaps more likely to play games online.