Without reading the last 10 or so posts I still feel the need to comment Kimi's incident.

It was 100% Kimi's fault. He lost it under braking, or missed his braking marker. As result he hit a other car effectively destrying Sutil's race. Just because Kimi managed to keep the car away from the walls or cought a handful of tankslappers means just nothing. What means is that he lost it under braking (like he did in Melbourne) and went straight off into another car.

That's the kind of stuff you'd expect from Saoto or Montyoay. I think Massa's save was 100% more better. He didn't even hit anything!

Congrats to Louis Haemitlon, good drive in eventful race. Nice work from Kubica as well.

Quote from Hyperactive :

Without reading the last 10 or so posts I still feel the need to comment Kimi's incident.

It was 100% Kimi's fault. He lost it under braking, or missed his braking marker. As result he hit a other car effectively destrying Sutil's race. Just because Kimi managed to keep the car away from the walls or cought a handful of tankslappers means just nothing. What means is that he lost it under braking (like he did in Melbourne) and went straight off into another car.

That's the kind of stuff you'd expect from Saoto or Montyoay. I think Massa's save was 100% more better. He didn't even hit anything!

Congrats to Louis Haemitlon, good drive in eventful race. Nice work from Kubica as well.

its Lewis, L-E-W-I-S

Quote from DevilDare :

its Lewis, L-E-W-I-S

Louwes?

Are we talking about the same person?

Quote from Hyperactive :

Louwes?

Are we talking about the same person?

Lewis Hamilton, yes. Not whatever is written on that pic. :P

Quote from Mustafur :

wow Webber 15 pts equal with hekki

And 1.5 times better than his own score last season. Well done Webbo

I can't say I was much enthused by the general level of driving. Somehow it all seemed unrefined and sillyish or I just have a selective memory of older rainy Monaco GPs with lower-tech cars that had no traction control. Funny to have Kimi say he'd like rain so it would be a more interesting race in a pre-race interview.

It's all OK though - they got their fat paycheques for doing dick-all creative, we lost 2 hours watching them screw around a richy rich town and despite there not REALLY being much actual racing action we even got something to type about and have multiple debates about. It's a win-win.

PS I checked ITV's broadcast for a while to see if they were less annoying than the local yokels and much to my dismay they turned out even more annoying - and that is a mighty feat. Speed TV's had some genuinely funny comments, as usual.

Well lewis will never be Senna for one his skin is the wrong colour and his nationality is all wrong. He may be his Hero but thats all he is a Hero for Lewis to be as great as Senna he has to surpass everyone in F1 and pull of amazing feats.
Like his pace in Monaco 40 seconds ahead thats an amazing feat but he still has a far way to go.

Quote from AstroBoy :

Well lewis will never be Senna for one his skin is the wrong colour and his nationality is all wrong.

So, according to that, he's basically suffering from migratory melanin-induced unsennism. Not to mention he's still breathing.

I belive u just took that out of context.

@keiran - not being sarcastic. Let me put it this way; Raikkonen could have avoided crashing into the back of Sutil and could easily, had he so desired, put his car into the the armco instead. It seems pretty clear he was going to go for the option which was more likely to end up with him still scoring some points and that was obviously not going to be by hitting the wall and sliding sideways through Nouvelle Chicane sans front wing and trailing the remnants of his broken front wheels and suspension.

So he went for the stay on the track option and staying on the track implied hitting Sutil as there was no way he could have done anything else - it was simply a question of how hard he hit and as Kimi made the choice to stay on the track he, by implication, targeted Sutil.

What I'd actually argue is that after the last catch he had enough control that he had a very small percentage shot at getting to the right of Sutil but with such a low percentage of making it and with an end result if he failed of spinning again and hitting the wall to the right or hitting left front wheel to right rear and breaking his suspension he chose the better option for him (and quite possibly for Sutil as well) of hitting him with his nose cone first which is engineered to break and be replaceable. At that point I argue that he made a conscious decision to minimise damage (running the percentages in his ice cold Nordic brain ) and the best way to do that was to hit the guy in front with your nosecone. I'd also argue that any professional driver in his position would do exactly the same thing. If you think otherwise I have to say I think you're being a bit naive.

So I don't blame him and I actually think that if he didn't recover from the first (or indeed the subsequent spins) he most likely would have pinballed down the hill off the walls and cleared up Sutil anyway and with more damage to both cars. What happened was probably pretty close to the best possible outcome for both of them.

At the end of the day, it's just a racing incident but tragic when it happens to the underdog.

Now time to fan the flames!

F1 is all about luck these days. You're either lucky to be behind the wheel of a Ferrari or Mclaren or you're lucky that circumstances led to your good result.

Now as far as the "great drives" from Hamiton and Sutil go, they just weren't that great! Just look at the FIA official timing sheets and lap chart for the race and pay attention to where they gain places. In Hamilton's case, he started 3rd on the grid, gained one place due to an overtaking manoeuvre (which to be fair was as much due to his good start as Raikkonen's poor one) and then went as far back as fifth after his solo into the wall accident. From then onwards he gained places after the car in front pitted and all he had to do was keep the car on the grey stuff (which a few drivers managed throughout the whole race, unlike Hamilton) and not run out of fuel to win the race. He got into first position following mistakes from other drivers (ie nothing to do with Hamilton's "great" driving) and the only way he could have finished anything other than first thereafter was if he made a mistake (or another one anyway) of his own.

Since when was not making a mistake and benefiting from the mistakes of others the hallmark of a "great" drive? Competent? Yes (mostly). Great? Emphatically no.

Do I discount Hamilton's effort (or career in general). Hell no! He's shown a hell of lot of skill for his age and experience and he's shown the potential to be a great driver. As for being a great man, he's shown very little to suggest that he will be and I blame his father and upbringing but that's a whole 'nother flame war I'm sure!

As for Sutil's "great" race, while he was 20th on the grid and should/could have finished 4th, there were really only a couple of overtaking moves on the track. The bulk of his early position gains were due to other drivers having offs (when you start 20th, you gain spots for pretty much everyone's big mistakes) and the (still odd) 3 spot gain while allegedly under yellow. From then onwards he just gained places as the car in front pitted and ultimately benefited from being able to fill the tank and do a one stopper while a lot of the remaining runners were hobbled by final qualifying and the consequent parc fermé fuel regulations.

Do I discount Sutil's effort? Hell no! There's no other way for a bottom of the pack car starting in 20th to get anywhere near the podium but to claim that any drive in F1 these days is really great is misguided. If you punch above your weight and get more points than expected in any race it's because others made mistakes and fate transpired to get you there. The "great" drives of recent history (as far as I'm concerned) are pretty much all Schumacher efforts and while I'd agree that in his early career some were actually great, the way I see it is if you're in the best car and you're storming through the pack it's more to do with your vehicle and other drivers (discounting Ralf and Fishyfella perhaps!) not fighting for position as aggressively as they would if it was one of their regualr competitors behind them.

Oh and just for the record, should Webber end up winning a GP following accidents/breakdowns/whatever of every car in the field I don't care what you say - it was truly the greatest drive in F1 history. Just like Steven Bradbury's Olympic gold medal win it will be Aussie bred skill that won the day!

Webber has struggled with lady luck for his entire career, and now that he seems to be getting some back it may be possible.

Quote from Lotesdelere :

Video of the accident:
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=E98DEXVK
MPEG2 PS Interlaced

Look closely at the video and you'll see Sutil's mistake.

At the 9 second mark you see Sutil loose the rear as he comes over the bump. Kimi looses the rear just at the same place. Could he be braking harder because he thought that Sutil was going to spin? Very likely.
I'd call it a racing incident.

cant believe how good raikkonnen's car control is, if sutil wasnt there he was catching that, just look at how quickly he's counter steering. I mean, coulthard done that in qual and put it in the wall straight away, kimi almost caught it.

@ Alias - I think you are being naive believing that Kimi was making consious decisions about where to crash. His main aim, which would be a subconcious self-defence mechanism, would be to keep the car out of the wall. Walls are bad, and end your race. He achieved that with REMARKABLE car control.

His second aim, again subconcious, as there is no time to way up the pros and cons of given results, would be to avoid hitting Sutil, either by going around him, or slowing the car sufficiently to not get there in the first place. He tried to slow (I'd love to see how much he slowed the car, but it was a LOT), and he appeared to be sort of aiming for the inside line, in the hope he'd shoot past before Sutil turned in.

As we have seen from a previous post, Sutil was having a moment of his own, and was effectively turning in early (albeit on opposite lock), therefore leaving Kimis subconcious escape route down the inside more blocked than he'd hoped.

Of course, he'd have got Sutil regardless, because the corner was too close. Had he hit the wall he'd have taken Sutil out too (most probably), and we'd then be moaning about lack of car control too, which we can't at the moment (notwithstanding the initial error of judgement).

In short, once Kimi lost grip, he was going to hit Sutil one way or another, and I'm impressed how well he recovered the situation such that the Ferrari was able to continue, and the Force India nearly survived - the lack of diffuser wouldn't have ended his race, but the suspension damage did.

Just don't assume that Kimi had time to sit and think about what was happening. It's all reaction based...

Im not a Kimi fan not one bit, Massa fan i am!

And i gotta give it up for Kimi for keeping the car controlled, the replay you watch him correct it and at high speed on that turn outside the tunnel, i was in shock. He did great work keeping the car straight, but shame for Sutil, really sad to see him finish the race like that.

Yep, pure awesomness by Kimi, if only Sutil wasn't there..

Quote from tristancliffe :

Just don't assume that Kimi had time to sit and think about what was happening. It's all reaction based...

LOL yeh about 2 tenths to think and control. Also think about the speed, the weather, the g-forces, weight of the wheel all acting in them 2 tenths. Then you could think mind and human nature for survival to stay alive and not crash. Couldnt even prevent that in 2 seconds with what Kimi did in 2 tenths IMO.

@Tristan - The inside is never an escape option at that chicane and Kimi made no effort at any point to go for the outside. I've just watched it over and over again and I still think he's going for the soft spot.

Either way it's done and it's back to regular programming for F1 until the next wet race. Screw night races, I say they build sprinkler systems for F1 tracks and we have wet races every round!

Quote from aoun :

Also think about the speed, the weather, the g-forces, weight of the wheel all acting in them 2 tenths.

He would of if he didn't have to send an SMS due to the intercom radio problems they were having but the horoscope he was reading at the time said it's wasn't the time for un-needed delays and distractions.

The inside IS an escape option if no-one is there - just dive down the inside, across the chicane, and carry on.

The outside IS an option, but as Sutil was there to start with it was immediately NOT an option.

I can assure you that Kimi will have made no concious decision to go for a soft target. People, even the world's best racing drivers, just don't do that in real life (though they may in sims).

Wish there wan onboard footage from Kimi's car

Quote from tristancliffe :

@ Alias - I think you are being naive believing that Kimi was making consious decisions about where to crash. His main aim, which would be a subconcious self-defence mechanism, would be to keep the car out of the wall. Walls are bad, and end your race. He achieved that with REMARKABLE car control.

His second aim, again subconcious, as there is no time to way up the pros and cons of given results, would be to avoid hitting Sutil, either by going around him, or slowing the car sufficiently to not get there in the first place. He tried to slow (I'd love to see how much he slowed the car, but it was a LOT), and he appeared to be sort of aiming for the inside line, in the hope he'd shoot past before Sutil turned in.

As we have seen from a previous post, Sutil was having a moment of his own, and was effectively turning in early (albeit on opposite lock), therefore leaving Kimis subconcious escape route down the inside more blocked than he'd hoped.

Of course, he'd have got Sutil regardless, because the corner was too close. Had he hit the wall he'd have taken Sutil out too (most probably), and we'd then be moaning about lack of car control too, which we can't at the moment (notwithstanding the initial error of judgement).

In short, once Kimi lost grip, he was going to hit Sutil one way or another, and I'm impressed how well he recovered the situation such that the Ferrari was able to continue, and the Force India nearly survived - the lack of diffuser wouldn't have ended his race, but the suspension damage did.

Just don't assume that Kimi had time to sit and think about what was happening. It's all reaction based...

AMEN!

Quote from Jakg :

Wish there wan onboard footage from Kimi's car

I bet in the following races they'll strap a t-bar camera to Kimi in the hope that he'll show off some more reactions like that.

Quote from Alias Driver :

@Tristan - The inside is never an escape option at that chicane and Kimi made no effort at any point to go for the outside. I've just watched it over and over again and I still think he's going for the soft spot.

Thats exactly the problem (the highlighted bit).

When you FIRST saw the accident - the very first time, at normal speed, not slow-mo - what were you thinking during it?
were you thinking about all these things you suggested, or was it more like
DURING: "ooh feck.."
JUST AFTER: "a crash.."
basically, that's about all you had time to think about before the whole thing was history... same for KIMI - just not time for anything else - the human brain CANNOT make the kind of conscious decisions you are talking about that quickly.
It's amazing that he managed to keep the car out of the wall to ensure that the accident was under some control, rather than the total lottery (both for him and for Sutil) that would have ensued if he had hit the wall.

As for all the stuff about no great drives being possible in modern F1 - what a load of nonsense. F1 has always been about the cars as much as the drivers. From the start, there have usually been one or two teams dominating at any particular time. That's never prevented 'great drives' in the past, and never will. You just gotta keep in mind that great drives are few and far between, so to expect them every few weeks is ridiculous, and to complain when they don't happen regularly is equally crazy.

Col

Quote from mcintyrej :

I bet in the following races they'll strap a t-bar camera to Kimi in the hope that he'll show off some more reactions like that.

He had one this race, Premier Live shows it. I have a complete race coverage with onboard footage only, but it switches to Räikkönen just a tad too late; when the damage is already done..