Threshold braking is a necessary racing skill. In LFS, people just set the max braking force so that they can slam the brake pedal down without locking up the wheel. This isn't very realistic. If I use a realistic setting, I'm at a disadvantage. I think this option should be removed from the setup screen.
I'm not quite sure what to do about mouse and keyboard users though... they won't be able to complete a lap if they lock up the wheels around every turn.
I'd be for this if most of the popular wheels had brake pedals that felt anything like a real brake pedal, but they don't, and that's why I set my max. brake force to something practical.
I agree with thisnameistaken. If there was any sort of feel through a game controller's brake pedal I would be all for this. But, since you get no feel at all I think that the max brake force is a concession to reality that must be made for playability.
I think that if everyone had the same wheel-pedal combo then this might work, but in reality finding the "threshold" may be too far up on one pedal and too far down on another. If max brake force is adjusted to where no lock up can occur then lap times will suffer because no two braking zones require the same force everytime.
Maybe the max brake force slider should be re-labeled "Squash ball calibration"
How do you adjust braking force on your road car? I'm asking seriously - I'm no mechanic I know front-rear bias can be adjusted and there's kits available to make this easier in certain cars.
Using an h-shifter and clutch while everyone else is using a sequential and autoclutch is another disadvantage. But I strive for realism - even if it costs me time on the track.
From my experience (modified road car on a race track), I have found that overall brake force is dictated by your foot. Want less force, don't press so far. The interesting thing is that during a race, the brake pedal is likely to change its feel unless you have a really well sorted out braking system. When your brakes get a little too hot, the fluid will boil, create gas withing the caliper and cause the pedal to feel mushy. A mushy pedal limit's force greatly. Heck, even the thickness of pad material has an effect on brake force.
On a related note, I would love to see brake temps come into play. Cold brakes at the start with less friction, then building to a maximum. Abuse the system and the friction drops. We could even set up a couple pad friction profiles for the race cars.
edit- I also should mention that when you use the brakes on track (ABS or not) your sense of g-force and experience tells you where optimum braking is. In LFS, we have basic brake simulators (I'm not aware of any force feedback pedals) and zero sense of inertia.
Brakes are made up of hydrolics components just like shocks so braking charateristics would be adjustable in many ways in rl, most obvious being changing piston sizes or having a relief valve that vents back to the master cylinder at a set pressure...
I also would love to see greater realism in brakes but don't think the current crop of controllers are ready for it.
...and yet a lot of people manage to drive many laps withing .5 secs, to brake consistently and by not using full pedal travel. In LFS we defenately have more than zero sense of inertia as well. You can even feel the tires deform under cornering and sense the tires letting go under heavy braking/acceleration.
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I'm no expert on brakes that are used on race cars, or even normal cars but the maximum braking torque generated by the brakes is almost always limited by few things, in this order: surface material on disc/pad (thermodynamics and friction), mechanical structure (how much force/torque/pressure can the brake system handle without breaking) and last, human foot.
If we have a material that can maintain static coefficient of friction regardless of the temperatures of the braking surfaces/parts the max force is limited by how much force/pressure/torque the mechanical parts can take. If the system is infinitely rigid and indestructible (made of hypermaterials ) the only thing limiting the max braking torque is your foot muscles. Naturally the maximum longnitudal grip between the road and the tyre along with the parts' inertias are the factors that pretty much tell us how much braking torque we can theoretically achieve.
In LFS the range and the fidelity that we are able to adjust our brakes is too precise meaning that the max braking torque can be used as a setup parameter to adjust the brakes so that maximum deceleration can be achieved when you are using 100% of you brake pedal travel. I'd guess a slight change in the way LFS setups are handled would do the trick, in essence it could be done by just making the steps biggers and the minimum and maximum values more realistic.
The main problem with brakes is that our sim pod brakes are based on pedal travel while in real life the brake pedal is pressure sensitive. There is a big difference on how the two systems handle the amount of braking effort.
Force feedback brakes is an imaginative solution, there is no feel translated through the brake pedal, just the amount of force (or pressure) you are applying to it. Sometimes you may feel some rumbles and vibrations thought the brake pedal but that's all. What we need is real pressure sensitive brake pedals, which already exist. But you need to make it yourself or pay big bucks for readymade pedal set.
+1 to the suggestion, with some reservations though
I'm thinking it would be like some sort of inductor where the core is attached to the brake pedal. The windings on the outside generate the force that keeps the pedal at its rest position. This, along with an optical proximity sensor to detect a range of motion. This would give you the feel of pushing against the master cylinder and feeling the pads press against rotor. You could also simulate a 'warped' rotor, or even ABS firing up. It's just money, right?
If we're gonna go that far, I think I also need a team of little people to push me around in the seat. My wooden chair would be a little out of place for this, but I digress .
I sense a very disturbing trend here. Remove every setup option ,even when its terribly realistic is many ways. Next, someone asks to remove toe settings when it is so blindingly obvious that all LFS cars have adjustable front toe in their RL equivalents, with only a small select group i.e. FWDs that should have fixed rear toe due to trailing arm suspension. Then ask for removal of brake bias adjustment when anyone who SERIOUSLY tracks his his car would have a brake balance bar anyway.
I know, let's remove tire pressure setting too! That'll be BRILLIANT...
Sounds like someone who can't be bothered to learn about what they drive and thus, shouldn't be driving in the 1st place. Or someone so incompetent at setting their brake forces right that they want to take this setup option away from everyone. The ultimate act of spite. Scorched earth! If I can't master it, no one can!
Anyway, -infinity. This is just getting too ridiculous. I would gladly trade this max brake force business for different brake kits with different maximum brake force, modulation, durability, heat soak resistance, etc. capabilities when excellent wheels and pedal sets that actually simulate brake feel properly come into market at reasonable prices (full set no more than current G25 price). At this moment, all the above is either a waste of developer's time or simply unavailable yet.
Now go LFS racing school (the LFS wiki is an excellent guide) and LEARN to setup brake forces properly before starting and entire thread to whine about it.
You've missed the point of his suggestion and the reasoning behind it.
He's right in a way, that braking in LFS doesn't represent enough of a challenge because all you have to do is flatten the pedal if you've got a straight braking zone. It would be nice if a bit more finesse on the brake pedal paid dividends in this sim - it would make the racing a lot more interesting - but sadly the hardware's not up to it.
I'm confused by the statement, "remove max braking force from setups." Is this meant as a suggestion to make the braking force a single set number?
The braking force in the setup is definitely necessary due to differences in controllers. If we all have the exact same controller, then a single number for the braking force would work.
I certainly wouldn't want to be the guy ahead of me going into turn one if I was forced to say 1650 on braking force in the FZR when I have the squashball mod done on my pedals. The difference between me not using the squashball mod and using the squashball on my MOMO pedals is something like 1650 and near 4000 on the max braking force. Conversely, I would not want to be the guy anywhere near me if I was forced to be using 4000 when I don't have the squashball mod. That's instantaneous lockup when I touch the brake pedal without the squashball.
There is an advantage in LFS to using higher brake pressure, the problem is that with the increased possibility of increased stopping performance comes an increase in possible errors. This is compounded by the inadequate type of controllers on the market (travel orrientated instead of pressure orriented) and the fact that max brake pressure can be fine tuned to such a high level (basically mimicking threshold braking while eliminating the possobility of errors).
So a possible work arround would be to have more coarse adjustments in max brake pressure (perhaps 50nm increments), so that it is less likely to emulate thresshold braking thus increasing the dividends of using a high brake pressure and threshold braking.
Ehh, Tell that to all the aliens that are using sequential that end up in my rear view mirror.
I have my brakes set up so If I press my foot down to the floor, they WILL lock. I also use the h-shifter with clutch and no assists.
I say leave the brakes the way they are. If you think they have any sort of advantage, you are wrong. Their brakes may not lock but they loose out on stopping distance. You can hit the brakes far harder at higher speed without locking and then lift your foot up a bit as you get slower and completely out brake the guy that has his brakes set so they don't lock at any speed.
If your brain can't tell your feet what to do while doing heel-toe, then how other people set their brakes is the least of your problems.
I got a good one for you. If ya think it is an advantage, set it up that way and I will race you.
My setup: G25 set so it does 1:1 with the wheel in LFS. No assists, I use all 3 pedals (all 3 at the same time while downshifting), I use the H-shifter in every car I can.
Tosh. Apart from the first lap (when brakes are 'cold') brake systems don't vary any appreciable amount. You have to have a REALLY poorly set up brake system to be suffering fluid fade from 'slightly too hot'... The thickness of pad material, whilst it is elastic to an extent, is negligable in terms of brake force required. Track grip changes a bit (although negligably on nice, dry days), which changes retardation and lock ups, but the actual brake system is virtually change-less.
Fade is so rare these days it's unbelievable. Making a brake system fade resistant is ridiculously easy. Sure one or two people suffer from it (mainly due to incompetence), but that's out of hundreds, if not thousands of racers per day. A tiny proportion.
Jamexing is also ranting without reading, as he usually does, and has totally and utterly missed the point. Shame, because I reckon the use of his brain would render him slightly intelligent, and he wouldn't need to type such daft things each and every time he posts.
There are pipe regulator options, that are normally fitted to the rear as an aftermarket alternative to a true bias adjuster. In reality though getting a car to lock up doesn't just happen by accident on a track, you have far better pedal feel and control and there's no shortage of signs to tell you you're locking up, unlike in LFS where it can be rather tricky to notice.
Doesn't regurgitating a list of things you don't understand make you look clever.
If you're using DOT4 or any road based/legal fluid on a race track and are not very cautious in braking zones the fluid will just boil, not something that should ever happen with the right fluid for the job. I think we can assume that the cars in LFS will all be using racing brake fluid.
Track day cars and stuff may not suffer from brake fade, but what about the average day (i.e. your mom's) car? I manage(d) to overheat the brakes on the punto in like 3 corners, braking really hard. But on the other hand one of the corners was 100-30 kph, going from 4th to 2nd on quite a steep downhill
I've driven quite a lot of road cars, on quite a variety of roads, at quite high speeds (when I was younger and more foolish), and never once experienced brake fade due to pads boiling or exceeding the temperature range of my pads. I have, however, suffered green-fade a few times when pushing new pads hard, but that is to be expected (but not encouraged!)
With road cars in LFS I could live without brake force adjustment. A rough adjustment for rear brake force could be used. For race cars more detailed adjustment should be allowed, less detailed than what we have at the moment though.
In general I'm all for reducing the amount of adjustments / setting on road cars, what's the point of them if people are gonna download the sets from Inferno anyways? People are intimidated with all the options, and I guess can't be bothered with learning all the stuff. If there'd be only a few adjustments on road cars, maybe the average racer could be lured into adjusting the car to his liking. Then, when some of the basic things would be clear, he could try his hands on adjusting the more complex race cars. Those who are already good in setting their cars up, could then shine with the race cars.
Off topic: I think (= what I've seen) most of the fading problems on road cars are caused by bad brake fluid. DOT4 has a boiling point of around 220°C, if it doesn't contain any water. As water is absorbed to the fluid (condensed), boiling point is lowered dramatically. 4% water in DOT4 = ~150°C..
It's suggested that if the boiling point drops below 160°C, brake fluid needs to be changed. In Finnish climate, brake fluid goes old in 4-5 years - depending on type of use of course.
I know front-rear bias can be adjusted and there's kits available to make this easier in certain cars.
) the only thing limiting the max braking torque is your foot muscles. Naturally the maximum longnitudal grip between the road and the tyre along with the parts' inertias are the factors that pretty much tell us how much braking torque we can theoretically achieve.