Quote from Aulden Slow :

However, Moose has a record of slamming the products, even before he claims to have seen it, so his bias is as clear as day,tening to the negative comments of a malconten regardless of how many here exercise respect for him.

Frankly I don't care what his reputation is here, it is clear from his anti-iRacing sentiments (well documented in these forums) that he had an axe to grind long before his claim to trying the software. What better way to turn forum members than to say he tried it and it sucks??

As for me, not being an iRacing 'fanboy', I simply choose to make up my own mind when I can try it myself and o be be to give an objective appraisal in a forum, rather than the vague 'it sucks' comments without providing details.

Wow, very interesting post.

I certainly don't want to drag this off topic, but i'd like to see something that backs up your comments.

I've never "slammed" any product i hadn't tried and i haven't "slammed" anything in this thread.
I have no axe to grind whatsoever with iRacing either

Why would i try and "turn" forum members?
I'd like to see everyone here buy into iRacing, it's going to need a big community to make it work.

If i went into an "objective appraisal " wouldn't that be giving a load away about iRacing ? Something you (rightly) don't seem keen on me doing?

Quote from bbman :

And that makes it right?

if the de facto rules (race control decisions) say it is then yes

Quote from ajp71 :

You obviously created your account and have been viewing this forum for some reason, you haven't shown any interest at all in LFS though and only pop up in a rather aggressive manner in this thread and still haven't explained as to what has led you to be here in the first place.

Perhaps he's an iRacing scout, spidering out amongst the sim racing community, hunting down NDA breachers and attempting to discredit them and dismiss their comments...

.. or maybe the paranoia thing is beneath us He's an LFS demo racer, apparently, and clearly has an interest in sim racing even if it does appear to be specifically iRacing. He has his view and it's okay by me if it's contrary to others'.

For me personally, since the information out of iRacing, both officially given and unofficially gleaned, is now plenty enough for me to be uninterested in iRacing as an addition to my collection of sims, it doesn't really matter to me either way any more. iR doesn't fit my needs in sim racing.

Quote from Aulden Slow :

i've said what I had to say. i don't usually post in forums, as I prefer reading the opinions of others, so i will go back to reading, and leave the commenting to y'all

First sensible thing you have written in your 7 LFS posts

Quote from bbman :

You are either retarded or ignorant, your pick...

Or I just realize they aren't selling a sim, they're selling a league. Therefore complaining about them not letting you race is based on a misconception.

Quote :

First, I don't take part in a league that doesn't fit me. Second, if I choose not to take part in one league, I can always find another or start my own. And third, I certainly don't pay for something dictating how I should spend my time!

Then iRacing is probably not for you. No point getting agro about it, is there?

Quote from ajp71 :

But given the fact that the majority of new racers will be experienced and fairly serious sim racers who are capable and used to running large grids of much faster cars the fact that we won't be able to quickly join big grids is disappointing.

How would they determine who is an experienced racer capable of running in big fields though? Or more importantly, who can race cleanly? With a ranking system you need to start everyone from the same point, though I guess sticking 30 newbies on the grid would soon sort the wheat from the chaff so to speak

Anyone remember when products were appraised after being released?

Good times.

Quote from DarrenMarsh :

How would they determine who is an experienced racer capable of running in big fields though? Or more importantly, who can race cleanly? With a ranking system you need to start everyone from the same point, though I guess sticking 30 newbies on the grid would soon sort the wheat from the chaff so to speak

Well TBH I don't see how shoving 30+ people in low powered cars for a short race is a bad idea, it is how a lot of the most popular club level entry championships work here. If people can't hack it and get involved in too much contact then they could be sent to smaller grids, and if 30 car grids really can't produce clean racing the system would mean you wouldn't get novices in 30 car grids.

My real concern from what I've read is that there doesn't appear to be any opportunity to run large grids and short races, a combination that appeals to a lot of people in the sim world and real world.

Quote from ajp71 :

Well TBH I don't see how shoving 30+ people in low powered cars for a short race is a bad idea, it is how a lot of the most popular club level entry championships work here.

Agreed. I'm really disappointed in the max grid size. I really enjoy larger grids. In the US, Spec Miata is one of the most popular entry level series and the grids are huge (30-40+).

Quote from thisnameistaken :

Anyone remember when products were appraised after being released?

Good times.

Very true..

Quote from thisnameistaken :

Anyone remember when products were appraised after being released?

Good times.

Flip side of that too is that products weren't promoted until they were released... =)

Quote from Whitmore :

Thats not true Games/sims have always been promoted before release. What was nice though was the free demo as part of that promotion before release.

Yep, you are right, I was thinking too generalized, sorry =) You are right about the demo though, most new games I have ever seen had one, the ones that didn't already had a userbase.

Quote from Christopher Raemisch :

Flip side of that too is that products weren't promoted until they were released... =)

Promotion isn't the issue here, what has caused an issue is ridiculous hype with claims largely based on hot air atm, we've still not heard much more detail than 'we've re-done the physics so they're the best ever' and been lectured to death on how they spent a lot of money with some lasers. Surely then now is not a good time to announce the fact it is going to be far more expensive than all its rivals before you've told people the juicy bits and got them seriously interested.

Quote from Technique :

I'm really disappointed in the max grid size. I really enjoy larger grids. In the US, Spec Miata is one of the most popular entry level series and the grids are huge (30-40+).

Why make such a fuss about the grid size? It's not a limit for eternity.

If I was iRacing I'd keep the grid size on the safe side too -- at least for the first release. Later, after some weeks/months of racing experience and subsequent tweaking of the net code, the limit can be raised.

^^whs.

LFS started with just 12 (maybe even 8?), and look where we are now. I'd hope their limit raises faster than the LFS one, though.

On the FAQ it said grid size was determined by license or iRating. For beginners, the grid size is smaller than upper level licenses. Previously they said their net code can support up to 40 racers or something like that.

Quote from Bob Smith :

^^whs.

LFS started with just 12 (maybe even 8?), and look where we are now. I'd hope their limit raises faster than the LFS one, though.

N2003 managed 42 cars on much slower computers and internet connections than we have today. It clearly isn't a technical issue seeing as they do have large grids but for whatever reason they clearly don't want them used for shorter racing.

Quote from ajp71 :

for whatever reason they clearly don't want them used for shorter racing.

I sense micro-management of content and features access/usage, yet again. It's something that could work, except that they just don't/won't have the end-all monopoly in the field of online racing.

iRacing's most strengthy angle is that, as we found out when the infamous Tim McArthur turned up here on this forum, the rest of the sim racing community is extraordinarily ignorant of the existence and capabilities of LFS. Even he, who has made his business out of online racing, had no idea about LFS's online racing capabilities, its netcode, its skin auto-downloading etc.

For the GTR2, Race and rF market, there's bound to be some genuine appeal to iR, despite the cost, because as far as most of that market will know, iR is the first in the field. I really think that iR's chances of dominating online racing with their deliberately small grids (pay more, race with more..) and expensive additional content, rolling service charges etc, are going to be significantly dependent on the continuing market ignorance of alternatives - the most significant of which, I think, is LFS.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

Anyone remember when products were appraised after being released?

Good times.

Let me be the first to say that LFS S4 is much better than Gran Turismo 12.

Quote from SamH :

For the GTR2, Race and rF market, there's bound to be some genuine appeal to iR, despite the cost, because as far as most of that market will know, iR is the first in the field. I really think that iR's chances of dominating online racing with their deliberately small grids (pay more, race with more..) and expensive additional content, rolling service charges etc, are going to be significantly dependent on the continuing market ignorance of alternatives - the most significant of which, I think, is LFS.

As long as a lot of that market is a "bunch of frustated shumacher's wanna be", I don´t really think that LFS will be an alternative, because of the lack in "real" content. For a lot of people, the most important thing they want of a sim, is to pretend they´re driving the "x" car, around the"y" track and getting their ego's up, thinking they can drive faster than "z" driver. For them, even if they try it, LFS will not be good enough.

Quote from SamH :

For the GTR2, Race and rF market, there's bound to be some genuine appeal to iR, despite the cost, because as far as most of that market will know, iR is the first in the field. I really think that iR's chances of dominating online racing with their deliberately small grids (pay more, race with more..) and expensive additional content, rolling service charges etc, are going to be significantly dependent on the continuing market ignorance of alternatives - the most significant of which, I think, is LFS.

For the general market maybe but quite a lot of the racers of other sims are members of smaller friendly communities that want to race together.

Quote from chunkyracer :

As long as a lot of that market is a "bunch of frustated shumacher's wanna be", I don´t really think that LFS will be an alternative, because of the lack in "real" content. For a lot of people, the most important thing they want of a sim, is to pretend they´re driving the "x" car, around the"y" track and getting their ego's up, thinking they can drive faster than "z" driver. For them, even if they try it, LFS will not be good enough.

Ahh yes.. guitar hero syndrome

Quote from ajp71 :

For the general market maybe but quite a lot of the racers of other sims are members of smaller friendly communities that want to race together.

Oh, absolutely. I don't think it will even appeal to the whole pre-existing other-sim market at all, but that market will be - more or less - made very aware of iR. They will, doubtless, invest in much making and distributing of CD coffee-table coasters, a la AOL tradition.

Quote from chunkyracer :

As long as a lot of that market is a "bunch of frustated shumacher's wanna be", I don´t really think that LFS will be an alternative, because of the lack in "real" content. For a lot of people, the most important thing they want of a sim, is to pretend they´re driving the "x" car, around the"y" track and getting their ego's up, thinking they can drive faster than "z" driver. For them, even if they try it, LFS will not be good enough.

Many real racers say that sims are only useful for learning tracks (besides strength/focus training). iRacing will no doubt have much more accurate tracks than other sims/games. There is value in having real tracks. Real cars is a different story. There's not too much value in having real cars. I like the fact that there's a Solstice in iRacing just because I know it's similar to cars I might consider taking to the track.

Quote from SamH :

Ahh yes.. guitar hero syndrome

Oh, absolutely. I don't think it will even appeal to the whole pre-existing other-sim market at all, but that market will be - more or less - made very aware of iR. They will, doubtless, invest in much making and distributing of CD coffee-table coasters, a la AOL tradition.

I'm not so sure about that. They seem very keen to make it exclusive and not perceived as a computer game. Having said that they also aim to get ridiculously high numbers of subscribers.

Quote from Technique :

Many real racers say that sims are only useful for learning tracks (besides strength/focus training). iRacing will no doubt have much more accurate tracks than other sims/games. There is value in having real tracks. Real cars is a different story. There's not too much value in having real cars. I like the fact that there's a Solstice in iRacing just because I know it's similar to cars I might consider taking to the track.

If you happen to need to learn Laguna Seca or Summit Point (Lime Rock will be redundant within 6 months or release) then yes iRacing might be helpful to learn those tracks, still not going to beat a quick (free) track walk though. I doubt iRacing will shift a single copy to someone who genuinely thinks that learning tracks is the primary reason for their purchase. The real tracks and cars really are there because most people dream of driving round Laguna Seca in a GP2 car rather than driving round Aston in an FO8

Quote from ajp71 :

I'm not so sure about that. They seem very keen to make it exclusive and not perceived as a computer game. Having said that they also aim to get ridiculously high numbers of subscribers.

That's the dichotomy. I think their intention, in marketing, is to make it sound as exclusive as possible because this, like the "real cars", adds to its "value". Regardless of the angle of their marketing, though, it's a commercial venture and to put it in the black, they will most certainly want buttcheeks on servers, and thus the truth behind the fluff will definitely be that they will want iR awareness to be maximised.