It is apparent that this forum has degenerated into such a childish finger pointing, mutually insulting, overly generalized, unfairly discriminative and sometimes downright dominated by Nazis.
Tristan an engineer? Oh my goodness, does he even know what this means without referencing:
Go back under your bridge please, your talking out of your rear. Tristan has his head on strait and hasn't said a word that isn't relevant. Out of anyone on the forum he would have the most experience and knowledge of cars and what they are capable of, maintence and functions of the different systems within a car. He works on vehicles daily and keeps a single seater competitive in club racing.
Unlike a lot of the people on the forum, Tristan doesn't open his mouth unless he KNOWS the answer. He may make assumptions, but he backs them up and genuinely listens to others arguments. Sure he can condesending at times, but taken into context and backed by his knowledge this is more than acceptable.
So Jamexing, if you can show me that you have significant experience and knoweldge backed by educational training please go away, your talking utter bollocks. Even I can see that and I don't know much about cars. Tristan has not degraded you, only putting you in your place and calling utter bollocks bollocks, and not making it look like something it's not. But by the simple fact you said that factory brake systems on the skyline don't fade shows that you don't really know what your talking about. If you did you would have said something very different.
There is no brake system in the world that is fadeproof. Cars coming off the showroom floor would boil their brake fluid because of the requirements by law. If the rest of the system had performance parts that were capable from the factory, the fluid would boil off if the system was used properly and to the 'limits' of the system.
So in order for the brake system to be fade-proof as you said the drivers were either crap, or they too were talking bollocks.
Haven't got a clue. I hated and was rubbish at Laplace transforms (partly because they didn't interest me, partly because they weren't taught with any context of how they might be useful, and partly because my lecturer was Chinese and incapable of pronouncing the letters l, r, s, w. Try and image being taught by someone who says both the word "can't" and "count" like a particularly rude version of a ladies anatomy!). Haven't needed to use them since, and I can't see any reason why I would unless I have a dramatic change of occupation.
I could also post a random equation, without giving any context and befuddle you, because you won't know what Q, w, S, G etc mean. I won't bother stooping to your levels.
This is the kind of attitude that will eventually drive this forum and this game to eventual destruction.
Who on EARTH has actually said that any car is FADE-PROOF? Seesh. That said, some road cars that are quite reasonably priced (usually Japanese) have very fade resistant brakes that will take constant tracking without fading to any significant extent.
I was trying to say that most brake fade instances in the real world aren't really fluid related anymore, since IRL brake fluid is actually insulated from actual brake pad temperature to a certain extent. Of course, the bigger the discs and pad area, the lesser the temperature for a given amount of braking work. Effective brake cooling really helps too.
I am aware that the DOT standards do have temperature standards attached to them, though TBH many top end fluids conform to them and even exceed them. I've actually purchased and used DOT 3 brake fluids that far exceed DOT 3 standards (260 Celsius dry boiling point) of the shelf. Multiple hard stops (over 10, though I can;t remember something done years ago) from over 100km/h in searing tropical heat (over 40 Celsius) will put any brake fluid to the test. Last time I checked, 260 Celsius dry boiling point is DOT 5. Since I'm not an advertiser, I shall not disclose the brands of DOT 3 fluids that perform this well, though with a quick google search one can easily find such items. And yes, I'm quite aware of their chemistries too. Most are polyethylene Glycol based, though DOT 5 is Silicone based.
The guaranteed method to fade any road car braking system (no matter what insane sized Brembos or C-C discs/pads you have) is to simply ride the bakes nonstop at highway speeds. Imagine a Porsche 997 Turbo in second gear full throttle, dragged down by brakes squeezed to keep it at 80 km/h. Add over 40 Celsius ambient temperature. With a bit of patience, it will happen.
Destruction? I doubt. I do find threads like this simulatenously informative and amusing though, so by all means keep it up lads.
While true, I don't see how that is relevant, or going to happen IRL unless somebody wants to intentionally damage their car. It's almost as pointless as saying that if you were to heat brake fluid on a bunsen burner, it would eventually boil.
Although that said, you wouldn't think you'd have to tell people that sucking sand into an engine is a bad thing, but given a recent thread perhaps these basic things should be stated regularly for the less intellectually blessed among us.
I don't LFS will be harmed by a few semi-off-topic posts on a forum. That's just silly.
There is only so much insulation a metal caliper piston can acheive, even with ceramic coated stainless, but as you say it is difficult to fade fluid if it's vaguely recent (10 year old fluid will fade easily, but I've never driven a car knowingly with brake fluid more than 2 years old). I also don't use crap pads in my car, so they are sufficiently capable of withstanding the temperatures of spirited road use. For track days and racing I would always use better pads. Green-fade is common, but I don't count that in the same way, as I know it's going to happen, and actively encourage it as a way to judge pad bedding...
So, bearing in mind I live in a flat part, of a flat country, and maintain my cars in a sensible way (no old fluid or crap friction materials) I am not surprised I've never had fluid fade on the road (I have, of course, driven a car against the brake on disused runways to learn what fluid and pad fade feel like) or on the track. I'm of the opinion it takes a big lack of mechanical sympathy or sense to fade brakes on a public road.
The Alps is a bit too cold for serious brake fade testing I think you all need to come to Bathurst or Hidden Valley if you want to get serious. Were not too bad at BBQ's and piss ups either
You are a damn sight further though. With the crap brakes all cars have I'm not sure we'd make it.
Would make a good Top Gear challenge though: Drive a car from England to Australia under it's own power. Modifications are allowed, such as large wheels, buoyancy or even wings!
The Alpes cold? at this time of the year? Currently serious high altitudes are needed to find any below zero tempatures(celcius) I guess at least as high has 3500 meters at the moment. Just watch "tour the france" It can get really hot during summers.
Anything below 20degC is cold for me and you would have to be well above 38degC before I'd say it is hot I grew up in a region of Australia were the average all year round was mid to high 30's
I get your point. However, many setups that have low braking force are made for controller with an on/off type of controls (mouse, some pads, etc).
I have always raced with a quite high locking value (depending of course of the weight of the car, its drivetrain layout and its brake bias regarding it). I do this only because it is a way to train my right foot to find the perfect braking spot for each corner and to allow myself to control it without moving too much the feet when heel-toeing.
Thus, people who drive a wheel and use a low braking force will be likely to end up with slower time. Because they WILL have to brake earlier, and when trailbraking their lines will be disturbed by that. They will also have to rely even more on the engine brake, which will lightly harm their engine and they will have even lower time due to engine wear.
So let the brakes as they are, they're just fine Anyway, braking is the hardest technique to master in every motorsport, so if you are motivated to brake well, while other don't, just focus on training with high brakes settings
FYI, I happen to have been from a tropical, wet and usually pretty warm country, so if anyone has the chance to toture test machines its me. The cool and flat British Isles do have a nasty habit of making cars look tougher than they really are. Which explains why British cars aren't known to survive for appreciable lengths of time in Malaysian conditions. The McLaren F1 is well known for piss poor cooling that won't work too well in any weather warmer than the cloudy British Isles. In fact, many American owners have upgraded their radiators so they now survive the Arizona desert heat very well even at normal freeway speeds.
Where I came from, conditions are HARSH. Random potholes that threaten to snap the spindly suspension of RAV4s aren't a rarity; they are NORMAL. Temps could drop as low as 18 Celsius at night to as high as well over 40 Celsius in the day. And Malaysia isn't renowned for the flatness of its terrain. Coupled with the fact that most can't really drive (Kopi O licenses i.e. "Mutual Benefits" ), it's sure to test the hell out of every car. Incidentally, properly setup German cars and Japanese cars tend to thrive here.
Green fade. Here's a little dirty secret:
The usual recommended procedure is to go easy for the 1st 100kays or so. In practice, the ideal bedding in procedure varies widely with pad type, though all of them require much "rougher" treatment. Some pads actually recommend multiple high speed stops to properly bed them in, as this removes the thin top layer whilst depositing a nice layer of pad material on the disc/drums. High performance sport and heavy duty SUV/truck pads often come with nice and detailed bedding procedures these days.
To clarify it all, I'm all for removing this arbitrary brake max force setting when the controls and the brake kits are all there and read to go. For now, it is simply too impractical and will hurt LFS's long term economic prospects. The developers are better off concentrating on what they're up to right now (East Asian language support, possibly more physics upgrades, etc.) than removing setup options they worked so hard to create in the 1st place.
Poor guy, and yes, I know how horrific those Chinese Lecturers are with their incomprehensible English. Unfortunately, those lecturers you see are far from the best the Chinese have to offer. And trust me Tristan, you have no idea how horrible Engineering education has become today. It's a social engineering exercise these days, and the days of working hard to do well, without resorting to unsavory politics, are long gone.
The equation I gave is the transfer function for a SISO (Single Input and Output) closed loop system, where the a Plant is controlled by as single controller. This is absolutely fundamental and necessary to understand, design, build and improve servo-mechanisms. In practice, a servo could be anything from servo motors/hydraulics/pneumatics to a valve controlling fluid flow to a desired set point.
Y(s) = Plant Output
X(s) = Input (Setpoint)
G(s) = Gain
P(s) = Plant dynamics (item to be controlled)
C(s) = Controller
Whereby s denote frequency space.
Control Engineering is, like it or not, an absolute necessity many practical arenas of engineering. In practice, engineers often find that the frequency domain is much more practical to work with than the time domain. Do Bode plots mean anything to anyone here? Without them, suspension tuning would be much more painful then it already is for professional racecar engineers.
By the way, if you bother to check IEEE, you will discover that quality Chinese Researchers dominate many forms of research these days.
Man, I should be charging you guys hundreds of $$$ for this free lecture...
You're actually serious aren't you? You actually think I care? I know my Chinese lecturer was not a good one, and I've not said he's representative of the nationality. And I do have an idea of Engineering education recently, because I'm not that old.
I have never, and will never design a servo mechanism and controller from scratch. Thus Laplace transforms remain totally useless for me, and I shall not bother attempting to understand them until I need them - i.e. never.
I don't I need to worry about Control Engineering from the point of view of suspension development thanks. Maybe for things with active suspension, but I have no desire to work on such a pointless and dull car.
I rarely (very rarely) check IEEE, as most of it is dull and not applicable to me. If Isambard Brunel publishes another paper on proper engineering then I'll read that.
I don't think I speak only for myself when I state that you're a bit of a wanker, aren't you? (mods, feel free to remove this line if you think it's too far. I know it's close to the line, but felt that the truth behind it make it slightly more acceptable. Plus Jamexing is (apparently) an adult and can probably cope with the odd insult).
Currently serious high altitudes are needed to find any below zero tempatures(celcius) I guess at least as high has 3500 meters at the moment. Just watch "tour the france" It can get really hot during summers.
