I can only go on what people that have raced for real tell me.

Tristan will say LFS i imagine. He knows what it's like to race a car, so i respect his opinion on that front.

I know sim racers that have driven Formula Renault and F3 cars that both agree nKPro is as close as it gets.

iRacing is sure to be the most accurate yet. Perfect? i doubt it, but it's looking good on the realism front (as far as the driving is concerned anyway)

I have never heard anyone that has any real life race experience recommend any of the ISI offerings. The flaws in the tire models are just to huge to be ignored if you want realism.

evilpimp, I agree totally with your differences between RACE07 and LFS. I would say the same too..... though I personally find gtr2 more realistic than LFS. though that's just me. This doesn't take away my thought that LFS is excellent!

As moosey says, I think iracing will be as real as it comesso far but I'm going to have to try it!

Quote from StableX :

I do hear you... but I recently came back from driving a 355 around Donnington. Got on to GTR2 and raced the ferrari and though not the same, there are not that many other games that have given me the feeling that you feel the car like a real one when you put the power down a little too much etc.

Was this one of those driving experience days? Where you weren't allowed to take the car to its limits and just amble round in a Ferrari with cold tyres and brakes?

Tyres simply don't behave anything like the GTR ones that claim to be based on real data, the peak slip angles are out by a factor of 2 at a minimum and the slip drop off and camber effects on lateral grip are both out by roughly a factor of 4! If you know (or have read) anything about vehicle dynamics you'll soon understand why GTR2 is so wrong, not in its 'feel' but when you actually open up the text files and have a look at what nonsense is being put into the ISI engine.

Quote from The Moose :

I can only go on what people that have raced for real tell me.

TBH that means bugger all, unless they happen to be sim racers first and foremost who have gone racing (like Tristan) without being a fanboy of one sim before they begin (not like Tristan ) they're not going to give any useful feedback. One of the main marketing points of Forza was 'you can't take a hairpin at 500mph', I think that is the kind of thing they really look for and of course they're not going to say what they really think. Remember Tiff being impressed that FWD understeered and RWD oversteered in GT4? Or the recently released prototype for rF supposedly developed by real engineers?

Quote from ajp71 :

Was this one of those driving experience days? Where you weren't allowed to take the car to its limits and just amble round in a Ferrari with cold tyres and brakes?

Tyres simply don't behave anything like the GTR ones that claim to be based on real data, the peak slip angles are out by a factor of 2 at a minimum and the slip drop off and camber effects on lateral grip are both out by roughly a factor of 4! If you know (or have read) anything about vehicle dynamics you'll soon understand why GTR2 is so wrong, not in its 'feel' but when you actually open up the text files and have a look at what nonsense is being put into the ISI engine.

Fair enough on the data for GTR2 mate and I can't dispute that. I'm just going on what I feel when driving it......

As to the track driving, no, it was take your own car along to the circuit.......

Quote from ajp71 :

TBH that means bugger all, unless they happen to be sim racers first and foremost who have gone racing (like Tristan)

Which is exactly why i referred to Tristan and two of my nKPro mates that are sim racers as well as having real life experience

Tristan's the bloke who thinks an MX-5 can outperform a Lotus Elise, Porsche 911 and Caterham 7 isn't he?

Quote from StableX :

Its about a new game coming out, the same as iracing is. As that is in this section, makes sense for this to be too, no?

Good luck finding a GTR beta tester on a LFS forum.

As for GTR itself, it feels the same driving at 30, 60 or 130 kph trough a corner. Where 135 kph is the max. When you reach it, it just goes, doesn't tell you a thing when it will go. In LFS you can feel that. That's why i hate ISI and love LFS. Haven't tried nKPro, tried rTractor and it felt the same. It is true, that i drive a 55 bhp Punto. But still, when you chuck it in, you can feel the rear (well, more likely it's going to be the front, and then maybe the rear, luckely in a slow speed, wet, old, slick tarmac hairpin, where there's no danger of crashing) slowly go. Get on a bit of dirt (very common on the local road, since they are building a highway just besides it and there are loads of dumpers driving on it, transporting dirt, sand and god knows what else) and it just doesn't steer, when you get back on the 'clean' tarmac, the (truth be told, very small amount of) grip is restored.

Don't really drive the XFG much, prefer the XRG, but what i have driven, it does seem simmilar. Though ofcourse it lacks the butt feel. And it doesn't roll as much (the Punto is like a ship going round corners, just in the wrong way).

Quote from durbster :

Tristan's the bloke who thinks an MX-5 can outperform a Lotus Elise, Porsche 911 and Caterham 7 isn't he?

No, not an Elise or a 7, but a 911 easily (on a twisty road where engine power doesn't count as much). Purely because of the handling you see...

And I know it can beat 911s, because I have. It wouldn't beat an Elise or a 7 though...


Moose - yup, LFS still feels most real to me, with nK a close second. I can't wait for nK to be patched and updated

Quote from tristancliffe :

And I know it can beat 911s, because I have.

:ices_rofl
How very scientific. I overtook a Ferrari 360 once; therefore my MX-5 is faster than a Ferrari 360. Brilliant!

Anyway.

Seriously, if you're looking for realism then the important thing to remember about sims like GTR, LFS and rFactor is that they have all provoked massive division in the sim-racing community. They are all brilliant and have some stand-out features, but they don't all feel right for everyone, and that suggest a significant flaw somewhere.

When Richard Burns Rally was released, the physics were never questioned; you drive it, it feels right, the end. nkPro is the same, the moment you drive it, it feels right. I'm not speaking personally, just of the impression I get from the sim-racing community as a whole.

Put it this way, I've not seen the physics of nkPro or RBR (or iRacing so far) disputed, but how many threads are on the LFS, GTR and rFactor forums started by people questioning some aspect of the physics?

The bottom line is, no matter how loud a community's claims, these three have not succeeded in convincing the majority. They all divide opinion. If the next releases of any of them immediately feel right for most people, they'll have reached that holy grail of realism but until then, there's still work to do.

Quote from durbster :

When Richard Burns Rally was released, the physics were never questioned; you drive it, it feels right, the end.

eero himself said the tyres are compeltely wrong on tarmac

Quote :

nkPro is the same, the moment you drive it, it feels right.

and then suddenly you find yourself in a pefect 90° dorfito

Quote :

The bottom line is, no matter how loud a community's claims, these three have not succeeded in convincing the majority. They all divide opinion. If the next releases of any of them immediately feel right for most people, they'll have reached that holy grail of realism but until then, there's still work to do.

1) feel doesnt matter one bit if the tyre curves are blatantly wrong
2) the loudest critizism on lfs' physics comes from long time lfs players not from any other sims camp

Quote from durbster :

:ices_rofl
How very scientific. I overtook a Ferrari 360 once; therefore my MX-5 is faster than a Ferrari 360. Brilliant!

It wasn't even a pass. It was keeping up with a 911 on a 16 mile twisty road, with both of us driving like lunatics. He pulled away on the straights, but I caught him in the corners (and don't forget I only fit cheap tyres to my car, so it's not like I was A048s or anything). Perhaps you've never driven a 911, an MX-5, a Seven or an Elise? I have.

Quote from durbster :

When Richard Burns Rally was released, the physics were never questioned

Yes they were. The tarmac physics are pretty poor, and the engine modelling never felt right - even with antilag the engines return to idle in neutral quicker than 10 seconds

Quote from durbster :

nkPro is the same, the moment you drive it, it feels right. I'm not speaking personally, just of the impression I get from the sim-racing community as a whole.

Lots of people question aspects of the physcis in nK, myself included. That's not "unquestioned".

Quote from durbster :

Put it this way, I've not seen the physics of nkPro or RBR (or iRacing so far) disputed, but how many threads are on the LFS, GTR and rFactor forums started by people questioning some aspect of the physics?

Might I suggest you read the relevent forums - all sims have their problems and disputes.

Quote from durbster :

The bottom line is, no matter how loud a community's claims, these three have not succeeded in convincing the majority. They all divide opinion. If the next releases of any of them immediately feel right for most people, they'll have reached that holy grail of realism but until then, there's still work to do.

There will always be work to do on the basis that real life isn't computed, total realism isn't possible etc etc.

SimBin sims aren't too bad when you take the time to fiddle with the FFB settings, once you get that sorted it can actually feel quite good.

LFS definately has the physics edge though, in ISI sims you have to really have to snap the wheel about just to catch slides in time, in LFS the car gets away from you more gradually, so you can apply opposite lock smoothly and because you can actually feel what the front tires are doing, you knwo how much opposite lock to put on, in rFactor I end up overcorrecting and snapping the other way, in LFS you can actually 'hold' a slide!

Oh wouldn't it be brilliant to have the best parts of rFactor and GTR combined with the best parts of LFS!

Quote from 5haz :

LFS definately has the physics edge though, in ISI sims you have to really have to snap the wheel about just to catch slides in time, in LFS the car gets away from you more gradually, so you can apply opposite lock smoothly and because you can actually feel what the front tires are doing, you knwo how much opposite lock to put on

I think that behavior is actually one of LFS's pitfalls. In general, tires don't gradually slide away and then slowly and predictably regain their grip. In real life, if a car gets a bit sideways and you let off the throttle the tires will suddenly grip and snap the car back into line. That sort of thing doesn't happen in LFS. And that's with road tires. With sticky tires and slicks it's even more "snappy" and violent. There are also the problems with longitudinal grip. Very little time is lost when you spin the tires off the line. locking the front brakes and spinning the rears causes the car to move (spinning tires given more friction than static ones...that's a big problem).

I'm a huge fan of LFS and think it blows away the other sims out there (not in all areas, but in driving feel and all-around fun/ease of use), but there are still some major flaws in the physics.

Quote from Cue-Ball :

I think that behavior is actually one of LFS's pitfalls. In general, tires don't gradually slide away and then slowly and predictably regain their grip. In real life, if a car gets a bit sideways and you let off the throttle the tires will suddenly grip and snap the car back into line. That sort of thing doesn't happen in LFS. And that's with road tires. With sticky tires and slicks it's even more "snappy" and violent. There are also the problems with longitudinal grip. Very little time is lost when you spin the tires off the line. locking the front brakes and spinning the rears causes the car to move (spinning tires given more friction than static ones...that's a big problem).

There's a common belief amongst sim racers that all real racing cars suddenly loose all grip at a point and then regain it resulting in the typical GTR nonsense about 40% lateral force drop off and ridiculously high slip angles. What a lot of people don't realise is that a lower slip angle creates the effect they're looking for (you reach the peak slip quicker and you get doubly punished due to adverse aero effects) but with sensible ISI or LFS tires you don't just surrender all control until the tire stops slipping.

Quote from ajp71 :

There's a common belief amongst sim racers that all real racing cars suddenly loose all grip at a point and then regain it resulting in the typical GTR nonsense about 40% lateral force drop off and ridiculously high slip angles. What a lot of people don't realise is that a lower slip angle creates the effect they're looking for (you reach the peak slip quicker and you get doubly punished due to adverse aero effects) but with sensible ISI or LFS tires you don't just surrender all control until the tire stops slipping.

I wasn't insinuating that GTR is necessarily better or worse than LFS in this respect. I'm just saying that LFS in not a panacea of perfect physics (say that three times fast). LFS might feel good and be fun to drive, but a lot of the reason that people come to grips with it and are able to get away with the things they are is because of LFS's downfalls. Let's also not forget that above and beyond the tire model, LFS is missing a lot of other very basic features like engine damage, realistic suspension damage, dirt on the windshield, etc.

I love LFS and think it's the best thing out there, but nobody can say with a straight face that it's even remotely close to perfect or that there aren't other sims that surpass it in many areas.

what do u guys think of the formula nippon physics? the one that recently had a patch come out. (fn2007 v211)

Quote from ajp71 :

That is true from some users in some cases but please try and argue that 14 degree peak slip angles (like you'll find in GTR2) aren't out by at least a factor of two.

Eeek I thought street tires didn't even get that much slip before traction loss...

Time to bump an old thread, as GTR Evolution got released on Steam today.
Not being an avid fan of Simbin, the last game of them I played was GT Legends. But now, Race07 + GTR Evolution was on sale on steam (26 $, so like half a Euro in real money) I gave it a go.
And I am quite positively surprised. It drives really well, and it is full of nifty little details a racing fan appreciates: the neatest tyre scrubbing sound ever, break sqeal, windscreen getting dirty, working whipers, rain. Also, it has the Nordschleife which is astonishingly well done.

Of course, it has downsides too: the canned sounds (a crash sample is so long, it played actually into a beginning replay of said crash), and despite very good framerates on my quite old rig in full settings, it cooks my graphics card. And I haven't tried multiplayer yet

So I can actually recommend it, allthough that "buy GTR E, get Race07 for free" deal obviously ended today.

this game should be renamed GTR Regression.

Oh, the comedy.

I actually quite like GTR2 in terms of a decent joypad racer. I hated it with my wheel, but it transfers well to the pad. Still not up to Forza 2, but it's not bad. And since trying to play LFS on my pad is a waste of time (and dangerous to other road users) it's about the only simming I can do right now.

Is there an Evolution demo? They seem to be a little tight with what they'll give away since RACE.

I just hope GTR EVO is a lot better than RACE07 , which is terrible in comparison to GTR2 and the feel you get.

gtr evo + race 07 for 17.99 delivered on play.com

Just going to dig this thread out perhaps one last time

I liked GTR2, but found the cars to behave stupidly under cornering, I'll explain.

You're racing on effectively road tires, and if you overcook it slightly into a corner, you should be able to decelerate, re-position the car for racing line, and at least steer your way around the corner. However, this never happened - if you overcooked it even slightly, the front wheels would just slide like they are on ice, and you'd find yourself in the gravel trap.

However (and I'm saying this as a big LFS fan) I've found GTR Evolution to be a much nicer representation of real cornering physics. For example, if you hit a corner too fast, you get enough (accute) feedback to understand how you should correct your line and speed. You also feel the road a lot more if you're not on the racing line, for example where the surface tarmac is less worn.

Another nice touch, which I've found only to occur in the smaller, high revving cars (such as the Radicals) is when you shift a gear under heavy acceleartion, you get steering wheel feedback which makes it feel like the car is torque steering. Nice touch of reality, regardless how useless people deem it.

And I have to say that the Green Hell is simply wonderful to drive - nicest simulation of Nordshleife that I've seen in any game.

I'm not comparing it to LFS at all, because it's different enough to compliment it for my on-line racing needs

GTR is immersive. Period. LFS may technically have better physics, but the race cars do not feel like race cars at all. You don't have a full sounding engine and transmision to immerse you, where as on GTR you do. Yes the physics aren't great, but if the game makes you feel forfilled then why cannot it be liked? LFS is good for physics and stuff like that but at the end of the day, it is in no way as immersive as GTR. The tracks on GTR are real for one, which helps, the cockpits are all invdividual, and the engine sounds are reletive to the engine size(unlike LFS) aswell as cylinder quantity. To be honest there is alot of flaming by people talking only on physics. Most people here haven't done track racing in cars like the ones in GTR, so the closest you can feel to driving one is a good thing, GTR feels closer to a real race car, LFS just feels like a game, regardless of physics, when you are shifting down theres no backfire, reverb or any of the small sounds, the phyisics on GTR:Evo are definately better than the original GTR (GTR2 I haven't played)

Tip : Try driving the Marcos MarcoRelly, it's a really nice car to drive, I was blitzing around Pau in it and it sounds excellent.

My only critism for GTR:Evo is that the Audi R8GTR is supposed to be a V10 but why it sounds like a V8 Is anyones guess.