Quote from arco :

Well, in hotlapping it is a big deal.

Good that hotlapping itself is not a big deal, then.

Quote from Boris Lozac :

Not trying to be rude, but, where do you race if 0.4 seconds is not a big deal? That's the difference beatwen 1st and 8th in F1 sometimes

But where outside of highly competitive leagues do you see similar skill levels compared to F1 drivers? There are a few sim "regulars" who really are good but 90+% of sim racers are too far away from a level where the 0.4 seconds would be significant compared to the time lost due to general lack of consistence, practice and skill. Then again I don't use autoclutch, so it's not that I suffer from any disadvantage from shifting alone, nor do I participate in league racing (or lately any online racing at all) so who am I to tell.

Quote from arco :

I have nothing against mouse/keyboard use, or button clutch for that matter (I used it myself when I was using mouse, to do manual shifts). It's the button clutch script thingy that bugs me, giving you perfect and insanely fast shifts. And yes, I'm sure it can give a whole second advantage on the longer tracks. I've tested it myself, and on a short track I was 0.4 seconds faster with it than without.

hmm... i have a suggestion:
do you agree with test hotlap done by you - choose one of pecholobos wr and try to beat it with clutch script?
possible?
please do not take it as oppositing from me, all respect. im just wondering.

I say if they wanna be picky about it set your own button clutch and use a sequential shifter. feel better you are now .4 quicker

Come on...not again...Kb controls were ruined enough last time around. I do have a wheel but I'd have liked to enjoy Lfs on my laptop on vacation too...

Until the day half of Wr's are made with a mouse, your problem should not even be considered.

Maybe those mouse users practice more than you? Or just have more talent?

And I'm pretty sure with some practice those mouse users would be faster or at least more consistent with a wheel than with their mouse if they had one.

Maybe there should be seperate WRs for wheel/mouse/keyboard again.

I remember once having 150 WRs. Ah, the good old times...

Quote from AndroidXP :

But where outside of highly competitive leagues do you see similar skill levels compared to F1 drivers? There are a few sim "regulars" who really are good but 90+% of sim racers are too far away from a level where the 0.4 seconds would be significant compared to the time lost due to general lack of consistence, practice and skill. Then again I don't use autoclutch, so it's not that I suffer from any disadvantage from shifting alone, nor do I participate in league racing (or lately any online racing at all) so who am I to tell.

0.4 seconds is HUGE, no hard feelings, but most of the forum regulars are casual players like yourself.. We organise leagues, people are competative, half a second is a big deal... i thought that's pretty obvious.

I'm talking about servers where people drive the same combo all the time, like XFG/BL demo servers, where you see low 1:33's etc, leagues where people practice every day.. Tenth of a second is a big deal, let alone 4, 5 tenths..
I used to go to our demo server with XFG @ BL, every single racer drives 1:33, so that's where mouse dominance is realy noticable, they simply don't make mistakes, they programed their hand and that's it... The same driver who got MOMO as a present couldn't do low 1:33's so he continued to drive on the mouse... That's what's pissin' me off...

I have to say that this thread is just absurd, there isn't any real proof that racing with a mouse is faster than wheel+pedals, you're basing all your argument about mouse racing being easier in the fact that people that use mouse for a long time are faster with mouse than with a wheel when you make the change, everyone who has made the change will tell you that you need some time to adapt in order to reach the same pace you had with your old controller, you have to learn to drive again, the theory is in your head, you know what you have to do to be fast but your cerebellum isn't used to it, it needs time and practice to archive that again, let me make an easy example for you, i'm almost sure you or almost everyone in here has played a FPS, and i'm guessing that you use WASD to move, the mouse to look and left button to fire, this is the standard, now if you radically change the button configuration to left mouse button to walk forward, right mouse button to walk backwards, move mouse to look, < to strafe left, > to strafe right and CTRL to shoot you'll start to make a lot of mistakes because you have to think which of the buttons do what you need to do, you still know what you have to do to kill the enemy but your brain doesn't know how to do it automatically in that way and when you change a mouse for a wheel in LFS the exact same thing happens, maybe if those stubborn mouse drivers tried to learn how to race with a wheel they could race at the same pace as they did with mouse.

Quote from arco :

It seems like most of the community realizes that using such a hack is bad, except for the Spanish, who happily do whatever they can to be the fastest. Are they retards or what?

IIRC several of the big Spanish leagues base the quali times off LFSW HL times, so getting that extra really helps...

BTW - Why is this thread still going? Were seeing Aliens who I doubt anyone in this thread could beat saying mouse is not faster...

Quote from [d9] :

hmm... i have a suggestion:
do you agree with test hotlap done by you - choose one of pecholobos wr and try to beat it with clutch script?
possible?
please do not take it as oppositing from me, all respect. im just wondering.

I've already beaten a couple of his wr's, by not using script. So anything is possible. But to give you a good example of the advantage, take a look at the FE Gold rev/XRG hotlap list. Both of those infront of Bawbag are using clutch script. See how much better times than him they have? I really doubt they are that much faster than Bawbag, if they didn't use a script.

what script, what is it

Creating a Macro to go Clutch In->Change Up->Clutch Out using a button clutch that's faster (up to half the time) of an auto clutch, meaning perfect, slick changes every time.

wow... isnt that cheating?

Is it?

It's possible to do the same thing with your hands, although the odds of getting it to the exact right millisecond time after time are loooow.

Quote from arco :

...except for the Spanish, who happily do whatever they can to be the fastest. Are they retards or what?....

That has nothing to do with nationalities, there are retards around the whole world, even in Norway (Well, maybe in Spain the average of retards is higher, I agree)

Quote from NitroNitrous :

That has nothing to do with nationalities, there are retards around the whole world, even in Norway

It sure is.

The thing is, there's 3-4 persons who - unfortunately, manages to destroy their own reputation, and to those others in their community. Because as far as I know, it's only people within the Spanish community that are using clutch script, and it seems like more and more of them are starting to use it.

I like tests over claims.

Button clutch: Would the dragstrip be the best place to test the difference?

Mouse: Can't think of a test. How does the mouse give the driver the claimed advantage?

The reason I'm skeptical is that during patch X up to end of 2007 the bl1/XFG combo, where mouse rules now, was not dominated just by mouse users. In fact the final fastest time was set by Montabur, a DFP user. In 2006/2007 I was able to keep up with PartyBoyU using a DFP as well. [DUcK] I think had that record a few times as well and he also used a wheel, don't know which one...

So you see, this advantage disadvantage thing.. I don't get it. WHAT is it exactly? I by the way was able to do those times because I had driven thousands of laps on that combo.. still get flashbacks to that addiction, though much slower now.

I don't think it's what you use it's how you use it that matters. as long as there's no advantage gained over physics or similar.

BTW I also used mouse during bl1/XFG time sometimes and see waht you mean by the ease, yet I don't know how that could give a direct speed advantage. If anything it perhaps makes the driver less prepared to drive a real kart/car... maybe.

using mouse for steering,..kind of fun

hehe, except a little detail - they are using hybrid tyres
interesting, 1st time seen on xrg!
this can be possible serious break of STD class blance if that will be used with XRGs on another tracks!

Quote from arco :

I've already beaten a couple of his wr's, by not using script. So anything is possible. But to give you a good example of the advantage, take a look at the FE Gold rev/XRG hotlap list. Both of those infront of Bawbag are using clutch script. See how much better times than him they have? I really doubt they are that much faster than Bawbag, if they didn't use a script.

Quote from IDUI :

[DUcK] I think had that record a few times as well and he also used a wheel, don't know which one...

Momo I believe... actually, when his wheel broke down, he set a new wr using the mouse as well. Yeah he's special.

Quote from [d9] :

hehe, except a little detail - they are using hybrid tyres
interesting, 1st time seen on xrg!
this can be possible serious break of STD class blance if that will be used with XRGs on another tracks!

Oh, that slipped my eyes! Same story with the XFG as well it seems. Hybrids on the front and rear.
How long until 1:32 on BL1/XFG?

I think this thread was created because You met Pallukka on a server

Well guess what, if he had a wheel, then Mr Naujoks and Mooney and Schade would have to start sweating again during races. Pallu is teh shit

I agree that there are numerous advantage to driving with the mouse, faster counter steering because of the lack of ffb is just one, but again, that's nothing impossible with the wheel, just harder.

However, there's also numerous disadvantages as well. Just the fact that you can't modulate your acceleration and braking is an immense problem. That means that you need a set that has less braking potential in race if you don't want to kill your tires by flat spotting them. Also, the fact that you can't modulate your acceleration does prove annoying in certain turns.

Yesterday, my bro and I were doing some laps on SO long with the lx6. We both hadn't driven the car or the track for a long time, and I'm using mouse while he's with a wheel. What became apparent to me is that I had quite a good advantage in certain parts of the circuit because they're very bumpy, and having no force feedback, correcting the car was way easier than it was with a wheel. However, in the very narrow corners, and at the end of the long straights, with a wheel is was possible to brake later and possibly take the corners a bit faster, all due to the lack of modulation of the mouse.

Ok, some people don't seem to think that the button clutch script thing is such a big deal, so I'm going to tell you how to use it. Probably shouldn't, but I don't care anymore.

1. Download the attachment, extract it and import the file into Logitech Profiler.
2. In LFS, make sure the C key is assigned to the clutch
3. Adjust Button control rate to 10
4. Turn off Auto clutch

Now enjoy amazingly fast shifts.

Scawen should do something about this, the button rate should be at it's maximum speed equal to autoclutch's clutching rate.

it could also be fixed by getting rid of mouse for steering and only having kb, controller, or wheel but I guess that was already suggested.