Kazu - learn your facts. It has never been proven that he made a mistake, the steering column broke, the car bottomed out, he passed out from holding his breath etc.

My own opinion, solely from looking at the onboard video, was that something broke on the car OR he lost downforce through bottoming. I don't think I've ever seen an accident from sudden understeer due to a drivers mistake that wasn't instantly corrected or turned to oversteer...

However, it remains possible (i.e. nowhere near the realms of fantasy) that he made a mistake on a car in less than ideal conditions (low tyre pressures and temperatures etc).

Quote from nitronitrous :

schumi :bowdown:

+1 :d

Quote from Taavi(EST) :

Yes, Ferrari hadn't won a championship since 1979, but it took 4 years for Schumacher to win the title driving for Ferrari, so you're both wrong (FL!P was less wrong though). Schumacher's first championship victory driving for Ferrari was in 2000. In 1996 (79+17) the champion was Damon Hill, i was kinda sure you would know that, and Schumacher came 3rd the same year being his first year for Ferrari. So it took Ferrari 21 years to win the title again, not 25 or 17 (79+25='04=Schumacher's last, 7th, title)

Thought I'd clear that up....but as i now see, this topic has been zombied. But still i could argue with Tristan, so it's worth it, and i KNOW I'm right on this one. :P

Wrong!

Ferrari won the F1 Constructor's title in 1982, 1983 and 1999 - so 15 championship-less years 1984 to 1998.

Quote from Storm_Cloud :

Wrong!

Ferrari won the F1 Constructor's title in 1982, 1983 and 1999 - so 15 championship-less years 1984 to 1998.

Yes, you're right. Point well taken. But the case was drivers championship, not constructor championship. And now, reviewing my own maths on the driver championship for Ferrari, i counted wrong, it was 20 years without a drivers championship victory for Ferrari.

Ima just gonna say one thing - If senna hadn died, the seasons from there on would be nothing short of spectacular. We'd have 2 über drivers that just wouldnt give one inch on the track... constantly battling it out.
Would have made the senna/prost thing seem like a calm afternoon tea.
Can you imagine schumi trying to slipstream past senna? or the opposite?
I'd garantee we'd see them fistfighting after some crash...

Oh the possibilites... We lost a great driver, a great man, and a great sportsman in senna.

I really enjoy the analysis of Schumacher's driving style. It's interesting to see how other drivers figure he was so fast, and to see what MS thinks himself about his driving.

Quote from DevilDare :

way too bump a year old thread

What's the problem with that? People complain when someone starts a new thread when there was an old one that could have been posted in, and then people complain when a discussion is continued in an already existing thread, just because it's more than a month or two old. Makes no sense to me...

Quote from Michael Denham :

I really enjoy the analysis of Schumacher's driving style. It's interesting to see how other drivers figure he was so fast, and to see what MS thinks himself about his driving.

As long as they can leave any silly prejudices or single-incidents out of their mind whilst they do so... Even though he might have fouled once or twice (the average footballer fouls (cheats) at least this many times PER GAME, and no one minds).

Quote from Michael Denham :

What's the problem with that? People complain when someone starts a new thread when there was an old one that could have been posted in, and then people complain when a discussion is continued in an already existing thread, just because it's more than a month or two old. Makes no sense to me...

I've never understood it really (as long as they intend to continue the discussion as opposed to just adding a totally inane comment.


Back to the topic - perhaps what makes Senna's or Schumacher's style more impressive is the fact they've been looked at in great detail (to see all the subtlties), whereas most drivers styles are barely glanced at (usually to provide a one-off comparison between other drivers)...

I have a funny feeling if you analysed Damon Hill's, Takuma Sato's or even Christian Fittipaldi's driving style properly and in-depth you'd find so many "wow" moments you'd end up with a mouthful of bees nesting.

Quote from tristancliffe :

I have a funny feeling if you analysed Damon Hill's, Takuma Sato's or even Christian Fittipaldi's driving style properly and in-depth you'd find so many "wow" moments you'd end up with a mouthful of bees nesting.

One only needs to look at onboard videos of qualifying (heck, even practice or race laps) to be impressed at the degree of control F1 drivers have. Even drivers in F3000 and GP2 are impressive to watch when at maximum attack.

For those who are learned in the art of high-performance or advanced driving, the wow-factor is even greater.

And that is one of the reasons I have NEVER EVER been bored watching F1, because I'm able to see how massive all their talents are - even the crap ones like Hamilton (crap being a relative term; relative to the F1 average) are impressive.

Hahaha. Yeah people seem to think the drivers at the back of the grid are 'slow' but in reality it's just not true. Put them all in the same car and I bet the laptimes would be closer than many people would think. Maybe there's the odd exception, someone who has got there thanks to money, but for the most part they are all very very good at what they do. Just that some can push that little bit harder over a race distance, allowing them to successfully pull off different strategies, and also without beaching the car in sand traps or running red lights

Quote from Kazu2799 :

learn youre fact before speaking senna never made any mistake the steering column broke and thats what caused the accident. And stats dont mean anything just look at gilles villeneuve he never won a championship but he probably is in the top5 of best drivers(im talking about driving skill).

Gilles Villeneuve was a very talented driver indeed. His accident was a real shame as was Senna's, but what you are saying, is what a guy from work said to me, after he told me about his friends driving drunk in a stolen car going 140mph towards a crossroad intersection then crashing into a school and the guy said the brakes failed (not that he would even know). It's not really relevant to give all these theories it's always gonna be another one of those things that what anyone says, everyone can't agree and will still hold their own opinion about it whatever is said.

Quote from Michael Denham :

Hahaha. Yeah people seem to think the drivers at the back of the grid are 'slow' but in reality it's just not true. Put them all in the same car and I bet the laptimes would be closer than many people would think. Maybe there's the odd exception, someone who has got there thanks to money, but for the most part they are all very very good at what they do. Just that some can push that little bit harder over a race distance, allowing them to successfully pull off different strategies, and also without beaching the car in sand traps or running red lights

Enriqué Bernoldi comes to mind, when talking about people who have gotten there because of money. :P

Whoa, hold on there; this is the guy who overtook Michael Schumacher in an Arrows! I've been watching F1 since 1998 and I cannot think of a single driver that was racing purely because he had the money, crap drivers don't get into F1, they just look crap relative to other F1 drivers.

Quote from count.bazley :

Whoa, hold on there; this is the guy who overtook Michael Schumacher in an Arrows! I've been watching F1 since 1998 and I cannot think of a single driver that was racing purely because he had the money, crap drivers don't get into F1, they just look crap relative to other F1 drivers.

Then you need to start following motor racing a little more carefully.

I don't - all the drivers are good drivers. Sure some drivers have been worse than others, but they are still all within a few percent of each other in terms of driving talent. The least talented ones (say 95% of 'average') are the Dinizs of the world, whilst the most talented (say 105% of the 'average') are the Sennas and Schumachers.

Of course, there are many different aspects to an F1 drivers ability. On pure pace, ability to think/plan, consistency, passing, defending, qualifying, racing, testing, feedback, strength, stamina etc etc etc...

I think you need to follow motorsport a little more carefully.

Why? Surely Ide has been the worst F1 driver of the past 11 years and even he wasn't too bad considering all the mileage he ever did in an F1 car was in the official sessions of the race weekends. It's also worth noting that a lot of drivers that never scored points would have scored them with today's points system; Rosset, Tuero and Yoong are just three that I know of off the top of my head.

Edit: Of course, I was replying to Intrepid there, totally echo what Tristan said there.

Quote from Intrepid :

Then you need to start following motor racing a little more carefully.

Since 1998, which crap racing driver got into F1 purely because of money? Can you show their career history and demonstrate why they're crap?

I honestly can't think of any. Even Yuji Ide was pretty good in F3 and Formula Nippon.

Quote from BlueFlame :

Enriqué Bernoldi comes to mind, when talking about people who have gotten there because of money. :P

Actually Bernoldi was faster than Raikkonen when both were testing for a Sauber seat back in the 2000's.

Quote from tristancliffe :

I don't - all the drivers are good drivers. Sure some drivers have been worse than others, but they are still all within a few percent of each other in terms of driving talent. The least talented ones (say 95% of 'average') are the Dinizs of the world, whilst the most talented (say 105% of the 'average') are the Sennas and Schumachers.

Of course, there are many different aspects to an F1 drivers ability. On pure pace, ability to think/plan, consistency, passing, defending, qualifying, racing, testing, feedback, strength, stamina etc etc etc...

I think you need to follow motorsport a little more carefully.

What you see on an F1 grid is a the best drivers of the group of people that can afford motorsport at a 'high' level, and that is a TINY percentage of the overall population. even Senna was MINTED! We would not know him if he wasn't from a wealthy background. Motorsport isn't inclusive enough for us to pin down percentages of average talent

That kid said

Quote :

I cannot think of a single driver that was racing purely because he had the money

Well if there is a kid (call him jonny) in karting who is exceptionally good but does not have the financial backing. He isn't moving to cars. Another kid who could be beaten on a regular basis by Jonny has the the money. He then moves to cars and is on his way....he can afford a fitness instructor, as well as mind coach, and uber amounts testing in cars.

Is that move not one purely on the basis of 'money'?

This is not always the case and there are some faboulous drivers coming through the 'system' at present, but without money you are NO BODY. Money dicates EVERY decision in motorsport.

"Can I afford to ......"

Was it not Albers who literally had to provide sponsors money to race?

I am not saying F1 drivers are crap, but the system is not DESIGNED to nurture talent and thus drivers with hefty financial backing are at a HUGE advantage.

You sound bitter?

No, just giving a reality check.

Reality check failed: (DC 11+3 vs 17)
Fantasy resumed.

Quote from count.bazley :

Whoa, hold on there; this is the guy who overtook Michael Schumacher in an Arrows! I've been watching F1 since 1998 and I cannot think of a single driver that was racing purely because he had the money, crap drivers don't get into F1, they just look crap relative to other F1 drivers.

I'm sure your thinking of Jos Verstappen, who got laid off because they prefered Bernoldi because he already had the cash. Never heard Bernoldi doing anything quick or good. Only remember him racing in an Orange Arrows and that's about it. I'm sure your thinking of Jos Verstappen, him and Schumacher are good friends too. http://f1-facts.com/results/season/2001 Doesn't even have any points in his first season, or his second. So I doubt he overtook Schumacher, and even if he did, it wasn't for race position... You got the wrong guy. And it proves me right if they kept him for 2 unsucessful years. They could of sacked him mid season of course but NO.



Also, I agree with Intrepid.. Money helps alot. Unless someone else is paying for everything of course

Driver 1: Talented and has money
Driver 2: Complete lack of talent, and has money
Driver 3: Best driver ever, but no money

Driver 1 stands a decent chance of getting up the ladder until the funds or talent run out. Most likely to get to F1
Driver 2 might buy a drive in a semi-respectable championship, but won't get to F1. Could spend a few years, if lucky enough, in GP2 at the most, but more likely to head off to touring cars of some sort. Money can buy luxuries in any walk of life.
Driver 3 will let his driving do the talking, and hope a sponsor gives him a helping hand. Might end up in F1, but also might end up wherever the sponsors want him to go...

What is wrong with that? You still don't get rubbish drivers in F1 - you still need a fair amount of talent to do that. A talentless driver will not be competitive in the lower formulae/championships, and won't be considered by an F1 team regardless of the size of the budget. The poor driver just needs luck on his side (although Alan won't admit that luck plays a part in these things).

I still think you sound bitter. No money to buy your way up the ladder, and insufficient talent to be spotted? And you can't use the same argument on me, because I'm not even trying to get up the ladder, I do it entirely for fun and the adrenaline rush...

Bernoldi - National gokart champion, British Formula Renault champion, and several wins in British F3. Not exactly talentless then...

Quote from tristancliffe :

Driver 1: Talented and has money
Driver 2: Complete lack of talent, and has money
Driver 3: Best driver ever, but no money

Driver 1 stands a decent chance of getting up the ladder until the funds or talent run out. Most likely to get to F1
Driver 2 might buy a drive in a semi-respectable championship, but won't get to F1. Could spend a few years, if lucky enough, in GP2 at the most, but more likely to head off to touring cars of some sort. Money can buy luxuries in any walk of life.
Driver 3 will let his driving do the talking, and hope a sponsor gives him a helping hand. Might end up in F1, but also might end up wherever the sponsors want him to go...

What is wrong with that? You still don't get rubbish drivers in F1 - you still need a fair amount of talent to do that. A talentless driver will not be competitive in the lower formulae/championships, and won't be considered by an F1 team regardless of the size of the budget. The poor driver just needs luck on his side (although Alan won't admit that luck plays a part in these things).

I still think you sound bitter. No money to buy your way up the ladder, and insufficient talent to be spotted? And you can't use the same argument on me, because I'm not even trying to get up the ladder, I do it entirely for fun and the adrenaline rush...

lol I didn't have much money, nor the talent, and the idea of racing cars has never floated my boat. Don't try to use personal motives (aka saying I am bitter) to try and discredit an arguement. It shows you are more insecure about your points than I am about mine.

Driver 3 - If he has no money he won't get into motorsports in the first place.

90% of sponsorship 'deals' are family based. Very VERY rarely does a driver get a true sponsorship deal. And the ones that do already have had substantial backing in the first place to get on a stage to gain a high profile sponsor. Driver 3 NEVER makes it to F1, not in the current era!

Put Ayrton Senna in a TKM kart with second hand tyres with an average enigne and he would struggle to qualify for the final of a Super 1 race. That is not even a lie.

Especially in the modern era of HIGH grip and electronic cars a good driver can't MAKE the difference as much anymore.

I am NOT denying there are some FANTASTIC drivers out there, but the pool of which these drivers come from is tiny. Motorsport isn't an oppurtunity for all sport. It's not like football where you can buy a ball, joing your local team, go for try outs at minimal cost.