I find myself asking how to start this post. Really it's not about anything in particular, just I feel like saying my piece on a given subject.

I've read with interest Scawen's remarks toward the "moaners" who ask for new content and i've read the thoughts of those who moan for the lack of updates.

I don't really fall into the category of moaner, and I dont want to sit on the fence waving the LFS fan banner either, but I do want to contribute some thoughts on this issue.

One thing I am is not very active at the moment, i've had the briefest of plays recently when I joined Oval Junkies for an hour of bump drafting, I didnt take it seriously and i'm not seriously racing at the moment. If I did get back behind the wheel I would have to get good again, and i'm not sure if the connection I have in my new home would stomach a full server, but I do see myself racing online again in the future.

More than anything though the reason i'm not actively playing LFS is because i'm not much of a gamer (I preffer to write games), and [importantly] because i've raced the circuits in LFS to death and I need a fresh challenge to inspire me.

I'm extremely envious of the life Scawen and the devs have carved out for themselves. Being able to work on what they want, not having to worry about crunch times and his version of sleeping in the office is a damned site more comfortable than mine!

I dont pay too much attention to the updates any more, but I note with some delight that some fairly significant improvements have been made, like timelines on replays - oh do I want to play with that in insim ! (I know, I really am a geek). Most people dont care about that, but I cant think of a league or server admin who wouldnt be shouting "FINALY! THANK YOU!".

When I compare the features of LFS to, lets say, rFactor. I cannot imagine any of the LFS projects i've been involved in being possible in rFactor. I'm not resentful at all of the joy that LFS has given me in dabbling with various things. OK some things I think Scawen didnt like the idea of me dabbling with, like when I wrote a script to download the hi res skins before he introduced the official version, but i've had great fun playing around with LFS and i'm truly greatful for the toys that they've given me and other 3rd party coders to do this stuff with.

LFS is a remarkable product with some incredibly well thought out features that truly does support modding in a way other sims do not. When you think about it LFS is probably the most modded sim. We just dont have content mods.

I found myself today plotting a circuit out in my mind, one i'd love to see in LFS. I've toyed with the idea of making a track before in LFS because as a modder it's my last unsolved great challenge - and I know enough from various tidbits and other aspects of LFS about the way Scawen does stuff that i'm sure it wouldnt be too hard for me to figure out. The thing is Scawens asked us modders not to release such stuff, and in fact there's something I wont talk about in this thread that also turns me off actually doing it.

There's other stuff i'd like to do, i'd like to make a proper touring car class with lots of different body styles - something i'm unlikely to ever get in LFS unless I can encourage Scawen and Eric to make more use of optional body styles on a given car. I'd look so much better on broadcast.

I'd love to inject graphical overlays via insim which I cant yet do (I didnt think of it until after Scawen had moved on from insim and so the request has lay dormant). Again, it'd allow me to do things with broadcasting that I cant do right now.

But the truth is i've long since had my monies worth out of this game, i'm very happy with the joy it's given me. Likewise Scawen+co have had my £24, and £3 for skins because I deleted all the hi-res ones I downloaded and used the official system. (a cheat, but an honest one :P ), so they're happy.

So i'm not going to complain that I dont have the things that would inspire me to play LFS again, and i'm not going to wave the fan banner around and say respect the development ethos of LFS.

What i'm going to do is say: Scawen, Eric and Victor, I have the utmost respect for what you guys have done with your product, i've very much enjoyed using it and I look forward to playing it again in the future when I feel like doing so. I very much envy the way you are able to live your working life and wish you all the best for the future with that.

And that's what I think about the contrasting opinions and attitudes of the content versus development ethos debate.

Becky

PS: Track Editor plz k thx

Everything except for the last line : +1.

The last line: Peez off plz nub. no trk edit plz kthx

Probably one of the best posts on this topic/debate to date :up:

Quote from JamesF1 :

Probably one of the best posts on this topic/debate to date :up:

i agree

Good to hear about you Becky, I've enjoyed your broadcasting...is not easy to hear this

Quote from Becky Rose :

So i'm not going to complain that I dont have the things that would inspire me to play LFS again, and i'm not going to wave the fan banner around and say respect the development ethos of LFS.

But I think you are right, LFS is a beauty but sometimes you look other choices and you go over there ( Iracing is my option).
I am ready for S3 at any moment

Nice post, and yeah, I agree, Scawen and co have a HELL of a job, I am envious of that sort of job, rather than the turn up at 7am, go home at 4pm, "do what you are told to do inbetween, and woe betide you if you want to be creative" type of job I always tend to get.

Yes, the current dev path is frustrating, and everyone has their own opinions of what should be / needs to be added.

I love LFS, but it could be so much more, I can't complain too much about the dev path, because I have gotten more than my £24's worth out of it, so anything new is a bonus.

Is LFS living up to it's potential?, I don't think so, it could be so much more, but obviously there is no "need" for the dev's to push it so much more.

Could LFS have more content?, hell yeah it could, tracks and cars, especially fictional ones, can be created pretty damn quickly, and as far as I can see the physics engine makes the actual implimentation of new content fairly easy to add.

But "we" are "owed" NOTHING, not one single update, I personally would PAY, like I have with Forza 2, for tracks and cars, but obvioulsy this idea of monetary gain for content doesn't / won't spur the dev team into creating more content, heck, they could even "employ" a small modelling dev team to create new content without even having to worry about anyone else touching the fabled code.......

I could crap on for hours about it, so I'll shut up..........

Quote from danowat :

Could LFS have more content?, hell yeah it could, tracks and cars, especially fictional ones, can be created pretty damn quickly, and as far as I can see the physics engine makes the actual implimentation of new content fairly easy to add...

Like many others i would like to see more contents and more tracks in lfs for the fun to have a brighter variety as playground. Nothing better then racing some real tracks with the lfs physics. It would sure be great for leagues and coverages.

But i do think we have to see the other sides. LFS is for me unbeaten when it comes to physics, because the devs had the physics on a higher priority then new tracks. If we get more and more cars, it gets more and more complex for Scawen to addept the physics and the balancing for all those cars and tracks, more cars, more work, slower development of physic features. People already moan about classes not good balanced and a hell lot of time spent on that in the past.

We still have to see if more and more tracks and cars would really improve the online gaming and could easily be the slow death of good online gaming. We all would spread on more and more servers with more and more combos. For example I would maybe just want to race the FBM at silverston, Dan just a touring car on the nurburgring and we would never come together to play. Then people would start moaning, ahhh lfs has good physics but the online play is bad, there isnt really one packed server. Or people would come here complainining why nobody is racing their favorite car. We already have this. People come here complaining why noone races the LX's or BF1, why there arent 100 packed servers with every combo.
I really think this a point to think about.


I know my english isnt good, but i hope you understand my two points.

Good point about spreading the field, however, more content, maybe a Nascar style car, , a prototype LM style, or a proper BTCC/WTCC touring car could bring more people to the sim.

It's an interesting time for LFS, there is no doubt.

There are a few people who have been around for quite a long time who have snapped (inappropriately in some cases) at the recent pace of development, said some nasty words and left in a huff (or been banned). There's no doubt that they are but a few, however there is often a larger volume of silent people beneath the bitter, vocal tip of the iceberg. iRacing seems to have taken a lot of interest away from LFS at least in the short term, and must be a concern for Scavier.

I honestly think that the Devs have taken this on board somewhat, and will pump a few more hours in to development and get some more content out this year.

The good news is that the commitment is still there in spades as far as I can see. Besides, people will slowly filter back from iRacing when they're asked to fork out for another month's subscription fee.

My 2p: I think people who get frustrated at the pace of LFS updates probably have quite empty lives.

The old "Do something else and come back when there's updates" thing really does work. I get the feeling some people have been refreshing the LFS home page every five minutes for three years waiting for S2 final.

The point about spreading the players too thinly over too many different tracks is a good one. And it makes me think of another track/player issue.

Now, I'm very much for more content in LFS. Whilst the updates we receive are substantial steps towards a more "polished" product, and contain many useful changes, we've still got the same six environments. Three of them from 2003, and another three from 2005 when S2 was released. The content is so lacking that it's only the excellent physics and "feel" of the cars that keeps people racing, imho.

But, if you look at the populated servers list, with the exception of CTRA's automatic circuit rotation, nearly everyone else is just driving the same old bloody combos. How can we put our case across for more tracks when the vast majority of people will quite happily drive lap after lap after lap after lap after lap of the same track in the exact same car? I don't actually think the likes of ConeDodgers or Redline are doing LFS any favours by permanently running the same combos (sure, people would drive those combos anyway, but at least it wouldn't be fixed as part of the LFS "establishment").

I guess most new players fall into the AS3/GTR trap, I did at some point, but managed to get out and realise that there's so much more to LFS than driving everywhere with the throttle wide open in a super grippy car.

But why are people playing the same old combos again and again ad nauseum? If the community is bored of the tracks available, why are they making it worse by only ever using one or two combos?

On the forums there's all sorts of debate and opnions about what/why/how/when we need more tracks, and the general consensus is that people are bored of the tracks. Yet this isn't mirrored in practice.

Quote from STROBE :

But why are people playing the same old combos again and again ad nauseum? If the community is bored of the tracks available, why are they making it worse by only ever using one or two combos?

The same reason people don't drive the LX4/6, RAC and FZ5 much, simply because they don't feel "fast" in them, and it takes them out of their comfort zone.

And despite this being a fairly hardcore racing simulator, people still favour the easiest races rather than the challenges. You only get out what you put in, so most people deserve to be bored, IMO.

First off i'd like to thank those who have commented positively on my thoughts, I rather thought the post would get written off as the ramblings of a crazy old has been.

When it comes to new content obviously there are two distinct areas, cars and tracks.

For me i'd like to see a bigger TBO class purely because it would look better on broadcast. If i'm honest this wouldnt address any noteable content shortfall in the game, so I doubt i'd ever get this.

Although my goals would be achievable not necessarily with some new cars but also with options like the open roof on the UF1, as a simply visual "bodykit" type toggle thing.

There's merit to adding new cars to existing performance groups though: Adding more cars into the same performance group is a way of delivering new cars without thinning out the user base. Such as adding an XF style car and some 5 door saloons - as long as performance is close enough to match them with an engine restriction or so forth i'd be dead happy.

That doesnt address the wider issue of certain forms of racing not yet being covered, such as prototypes, aussie v8's and 5 door saloons, and nascar etc, but maybe that's something for after S2 final when hopefully there is a larger user base.

Then there is tracks. It's different here for leagues and public servers: Well I for one have raced mostly on STCC/CTRA servers where the tracks have always changed. I made sure of that personally . I think all the tracks are getting used and i've turned a lot of laps on all of them to the point of knowing each corner intimately in multiple cars.

With a popular server operator already using a track rotation system I really do not think that new environments would spread the user base any thinner.

For leagues it's a bit different, most leagues use a certain type of track. In the STCC it's all short circuit racing, in Joe's national/international GTR leagues it's all long circuit racing. When you break LFS down into track types and track environments there is actually suprisingly little variety.

Here's some homework for you: Try and plan a 12 race short circuit championship as I did for the first season of the STCC, trying to keep variety of environment and without re-using tracks in reverse config.

Quote from Becky Rose :

Here's some homework for you: Try and plan a 12 race short circuit championship as I did for the first season of the STCC, trying to keep variety of environment and without re-using tracks in reverse config.

Been there Becky, I struggled to find combo's for the RSSC & RSWC that people hadn't already driven ad naseum before, and it was a tough thing to do, and ultimately impossible.

I may be wrong but I think they are waiting for S3 to make more stuff so they can sell it better
If they allow modding when the game isn't finished the modders would do cars that eric was going to do later...
For the patch Y Eric did one car with a parfect interior, he changed things in Blackwood and South City but in patch Z we only have some new interiors (that are cool yes )
I think that people moan because of this contrast

Damn I must be getting old. I already feel I'm going way too fast at 50mph / 80km/h through blackwood T1 in XRG...
@becky, that was a good post to read, thanks.
So what can we conclude from the moaning tendency post-Z? My theories:
1) Most of the LFS moaners do post here, which increases their visibility compared with in-game population
2) Satisfied / patient ones do not feel the need to shout around
3) Kids education these days... enjoy the ride, as the path to go to the goal IS the goal, fun and excitement. Especially in a driving sim.

As far as i agree with most of points in this thread, i don't think we need more threads like this one.

It's still the same scenario:
-patch comes out
-community splits into few parts: moaners/fanbois/the rest
-sh*tload of new threads pops in about what devs have done wrong, then tristanlike people appearing, trying to save the day making WGSDLFS club
etc. etc.

It's just pointless talking over and over, still the same. It won't change anything on ScaViEr's decision, how to develop this simulator.

Written with honest respect to you all (and sorry for OT).
Kid

Quote :

1) Most of the LFS moaners do post here, which increases their visibility compared with in-game population

Seeing other forums I see that there are more people saying that the devs are slow than here...
In this forum people are a bit afraid to tell their opinion (because of the recent bans too)

Quote from Sir moi 407 :

Seeing other forums I see that there are more people saying that the devs are slow than here...
In this forum people are a bit afraid to tell their opinion (because of the recent bans too)

As long as you can express your opinion without trolling or resorting to racial slurs you won't be banned.

Quote from Sir moi 407 :

I may be wrong but I think they are waiting for S3 to make more stuff so they can sell it better

Sure!
But with the patch Z, i dunno if the next evolution is S3, i am ready for s3 ,i am sure, but it has to be a great improvement from s2 to s3 for get more happy customers because you have going to pay 12x3 pounds.

For me it's just the tracks that are lacking.

A couple more environments would be superb.

I would be lovely to have a Monaco, Brands Hatch or Silverstone though.

I'm sure most folk would get excited about that even if it wasn't 100% realistic (which I know is a reason stated in the past for not doing real tracks)

Quote from Kid222 :

As far as i agree with most of points in this thread, i don't think we need more threads like this one.

It's still the same scenario:
-patch comes out
-community splits into few parts: moaners/fanbois/the rest
-sh*tload of new threads pops in about what devs have done wrong, then tristanlike people appearing, trying to save the day making WGSDLFS club
etc. etc.

It's just pointless talking over and over, still the same. It won't change anything on ScaViEr's decision, how to develop this simulator.

Written with honest respect to you all (and sorry for OT).
Kid

It's inevitable.

I'd like to say that I've enjoyed LFS a lot and I expect to to have a lot more of fun in a not so distant future, If I have to wait be it, at least we have new development, look at other sims and tell me which one is still in development? we have paid for the actual LFS content, everything else is a bonus, you may get bored with it the same way you may get bored of playing NFS, Super Mario Bros., Nintendo Wii Fit, Bioshock and a lot more of games out there, but you know that in the end there will be new content and it will be free (until S3).

Quote from gp4racer :

Sure!
But with the patch Z, i dunno if the next evolution is S3, i am ready for s3 ,i am sure, but it has to be a great improvement from s2 to s3 for get more happy customers because you have going to pay 12x3 pounds.

Scawen has stated in one of his posts that S3 is "years away". So I am sure that when S3 comes along, a lot will have changed from what the game is like now. I would certainly hope so anyway !