Err...
2008 Formula 1 Spa-Francorchamps Grand Prix *Spoilers*
(779 posts, started )
Incidentally in the GP2 race yesterday a driver was given a DT for being released into the path of another car, even though the prevailing conditions (wet surface) resulted in a slow get-away which caused the situation. Same ruleset eh 
...
My memory is not that selective, it's just appalling and I lack the recall to remember my opinion on it or the move itself - but in this instance the 2nd corner in the chicane was Hamilton's but irrespective he gave the place back. So why the penalty?
...My memory is not that selective, it's just appalling and I lack the recall to remember my opinion on it or the move itself - but in this instance the 2nd corner in the chicane was Hamilton's but irrespective he gave the place back. So why the penalty?
I agree with the last point - after watching the video again and again he clearly gives the place back. People saying "he used draft to his advantage" How did he? Measure the time he was actually drafting the Ferrari, less that a second easily. He just dummied Kimi so he swerved to block and in the process slowed down a little, then was late on the brakes and straight past. Great manouver shame the sh*te stewards have to penalise him for it.
Well, I am sincerely sorry for thinking that giving your position away for a second and regaining it immediately is gaining an advantage. Bet I'd make a wonderful F1 judge.
Kimi had half the car ahead, I can upload a pic if you want. On the matter of the penalty, yes it was wrong and I totally agree FIA screwed a very good race.
FIA school of logic, slowing down = gaining an advantage.
If we're just talking about the overtaking attempt which led to the incident, i've attached an image where Kimi has already angled for the apex, moments before Lewis had even more overlap, but as you can see Lewis has clearly earned the right to the apex. he's on the inside and has significant overlap in my opinion.
Althouigh as a racing driver, if I was Kimi, i'd have done the same. If I was Lewis i'd have done the same...
Hyntty are you saying that Hamilton should have stayed behind Kimi forever? he regained the position right after getting it because Kimi braked late. His own fault. Once Hamilton gave him back the advantage he had gained it gets back to normal racing. He did not repass due to the incident he managed to pass back by outbraking succesfully his oponent.
Yeah, that's pretty much what I was going to say.
In regards the pass at La Source hairpin, I have to say it is very unusual to repass a car you've given a place back too and normally this would highlight that the position hasnt been returned properly (just eased back, slipstreamed, repassed straight away with no defence possible by the unfairly challenged car). This sort of thing I do strongly disagree with, it's not handing the place back if you repass without the car you infringed having any chance to defend themselves.
However my feeling when watching it live (and i've not yet found a good replay) was that Raikonnen just bottled the next corner, Hamilton passed because Raikkonnen went slow and was braking early because, in my opinion, he has lost the capacity to adapt to racing in less than ideal conditions - if he isn't 1st at the end of the first lap he's nowhere. Like Massa used to be, but now isn't.
Normally that kind of immediate repassing would really wind me up, but I just dont think that's what happened here.
However my feeling when watching it live (and i've not yet found a good replay) was that Raikonnen just bottled the next corner, Hamilton passed because Raikkonnen went slow and was braking early because, in my opinion, he has lost the capacity to adapt to racing in less than ideal conditions - if he isn't 1st at the end of the first lap he's nowhere. Like Massa used to be, but now isn't.
Normally that kind of immediate repassing would really wind me up, but I just dont think that's what happened here.
This sport can suck alot.... i can remember freaking loads of situations in the Schumi era where he did the same thing (cut a corner) and get no penalty....
I really want Hamilton to win the championship more then ever now, to show that Ferrari just cheat and still loose......
I really want Hamilton to win the championship more then ever now, to show that Ferrari just cheat and still loose......
Hamilton did not get into the slipstream of mister Kimi. Watch the onboard video of it if you want the J.B posted earlier. He goes close but doesnt tuck in behind him. And the only time he goes behind him is to jump on the inside!
Joke.
aye as I said I think Hamilton's repass was fair and was an opportunity created by the conditions and Kimi's blatant incapability to deal with them, and is not a case of failing to return the position properly - which usually a pass on the next corner would be.
Assuming Kimi's move was legal what I could see is that Hamilton shouldn't have cutted the turn but should have braked, that's why they probably say it was an advantage to cut the turn as Hamilton barely lost any time (he was just behind Kimi, enough to stick into his rear and keep up with him even losing the momentum after letting him pass).
I have kind of mixed feelings about this because as Becky just said, yes, he lets Kimi pass but automatically passing him again.
They both did wrong moves - Kimi going out on the 2 times and still WOT and Hamilton cutting through the grass and gaining time instead of going back to the track (in that mix up with the Williams).
Strange situation, probably over reaction by the FIA.
I have kind of mixed feelings about this because as Becky just said, yes, he lets Kimi pass but automatically passing him again.
They both did wrong moves - Kimi going out on the 2 times and still WOT and Hamilton cutting through the grass and gaining time instead of going back to the track (in that mix up with the Williams).
Strange situation, probably over reaction by the FIA.
I want to watch that one again from good camera angles, I cant view video very well on my internet connection though. It looks to me like Kimi overtook Lewis under yellow, i'm not sure Lewis got an advantage from it at all, seems he lost a place avoiding another car. But I want to rewatch it.
He didn't though, Lewis got passed again because Kimi bottled it. Lewis didn't tuck back into Kimi's slipstream at all.
Well what I saw Live is that Hamilton had to correct the oversteering and went off the track, what would Kimi have to do? Wait for him to go on the track again? Hamilton should've slowed down and go into the track again but he went straight through the grass. He gained time, but then again anyone would do it when fighting for the win.
OK, all of you know that I personally don't like Hamilton, but I wouldn't have got his win away. Be happy with it. But now that's it. I'm glad and sad as well. I know that Massa gained some positions due to this. But I want him to FIGHT for the points, and don't get them in this way.
Bring back graveltraps and this would be solved.
No more full throttle driving off the track..u either slow down or the graveltrap does it for u.
No more full throttle driving off the track..u either slow down or the graveltrap does it for u.
(mr grady)
DELETED
by mr grady
Anyone have Appendix L? I'm confuzzled by the penalty now. (I'm downloading but I think this is French and it's going to take 15 minutes to find out)
http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/CA5A166189CFBA56C125747B002E4371/$FILE/Annexe%20L_08.07.03.pdf
FIA site slow as hell though.
FIA site slow as hell though.
There's a good quality video available here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4TZww5f6ko
To me it shows clearly that the two are level going into the chicane, which gives both the right to room to race. To me, Raikkonen does not grant this to Hamilton in the left hand section of the chicane; he drives to the extreme inside of the track even before the apex (not a natural racing line, even, let alone the correct line to drive two abreast).
It's not reasonable to expect Hamilton to attempt to brake smoothly and slot in behind Raikkonen in that situation, it's Raikkonen's responsibility to give him room to race. It would have been very dangerous to try and back off, actually, in a slow corner, on a wet track, on dry weather tires, off the racing line, with his tires already committed to turning the corner - he'd more likely wind up spinning it straight off the track.
It doesn't look to me like Hamilton overcooked it coming into the chicane; he makes the right hand part quite comfortably with no waggling or lockups, and he looks like he had the correct speed and traction to make it around the left hander if he had been given room. It doesn't look like he *had* to cut the corner to make it through, if Raikkonen's position were not a factor.
On the following run up the straight, it's clearly visible that Hamilton is not in Raikkonen's slipstream at any point. He's able to regain the position simply be accelerating more aggressively and braking better for the next turn. It doesn't look like something worth a penalty, to me.
To me it shows clearly that the two are level going into the chicane, which gives both the right to room to race. To me, Raikkonen does not grant this to Hamilton in the left hand section of the chicane; he drives to the extreme inside of the track even before the apex (not a natural racing line, even, let alone the correct line to drive two abreast).
It's not reasonable to expect Hamilton to attempt to brake smoothly and slot in behind Raikkonen in that situation, it's Raikkonen's responsibility to give him room to race. It would have been very dangerous to try and back off, actually, in a slow corner, on a wet track, on dry weather tires, off the racing line, with his tires already committed to turning the corner - he'd more likely wind up spinning it straight off the track.
It doesn't look to me like Hamilton overcooked it coming into the chicane; he makes the right hand part quite comfortably with no waggling or lockups, and he looks like he had the correct speed and traction to make it around the left hander if he had been given room. It doesn't look like he *had* to cut the corner to make it through, if Raikkonen's position were not a factor.
On the following run up the straight, it's clearly visible that Hamilton is not in Raikkonen's slipstream at any point. He's able to regain the position simply be accelerating more aggressively and braking better for the next turn. It doesn't look like something worth a penalty, to me.
This ruling is just odd.
Kimi didn't do ANYTHING wrong, and neither did Hamilton! There isn't any point even discussing it because we can't apply logic in these situations. Only thing to do is stop watching 
2008 Formula 1 Spa-Francorchamps Grand Prix *Spoilers*
(779 posts, started )
FGED GREDG RDFGDR GSFDG