Quote from AdamW :

It doesn't show anything because it's an angled shot with no useful reference point. Remember watching rowing at the Olympics?

Do you see Raikkönen's left front tyre? Do you see Hamilton's right rear tyre? Do you see their position to each other?

Quote from sinbad :

Yep, and at that point Kimi lets the brakes off because he realises he's being a pansy. If you take that screen shot, and remember that Kimi is a pansy with no wet weather control , then Lewis is in the lead, and Kimi made a poorly judged effort at taking the place back. If the roles were reversed from that screenshot onwards, with Lewis making the pass on the inside, pushing Kimi wide, then Kimi would have been allowed to continue in the lead.

The FIA seem to ignore this, and think that because Kimi was ahead when he started braking, that he should be granted a 2 second lead after the corner. I think it was a harsh decision personally.

SinBad, as usual, a man of reason

Evan as a Ferrari die hard, I do think the penalty was a little over the top for something so small.

Did anyone else notice, it looked like Kimi's left rear was flat after he crashed?

Quote from diablo21 :

That pic shows nothing..

I don´t agree... One thing I don´t understand is that people say that Kimi had the right to the line to that right turn since he was on the inside, altough Hamilton, as that pic shows, was ahead under braking. So, following the same logic and since the other turn on that chicane is to the left shouldn´t be Hamilton to have the right to that corner since his car car was much more side by side with Kimi than at the previous corner...
I would understand that point if this was a chicane like the ones we have in LFS, that you can just cut it and make it just one turn, but that is not the case here.

Don´t think this video has been posted before (only onboard from Hamilton and Kimi): http://www.dailymotion.com/vid ... magcom-hamiltonkimi_sport

Quote from chunkyracer :

I don´t agree... One thing I don´t understand is that people say that Kimi had the right to the line to that right turn since he was on the inside, altough Hamilton, as that pic shows, was ahead under braking. So, following the same logic and since the other turn on that chicane is to the left shouldn´t be Hamilton to have the right to that corner since his car car was much more side by side with Kimi than at the previous corner...
I would understand that point if this was a chicane like the ones we have in LFS, that you can just cut it and make it just one turn, but that is not the case here.

Don´t think this video has been posted before (only onboard from Hamilton and Kimi): http://www.dailymotion.com/vid ... magcom-hamiltonkimi_sport

Thanks for that chunky.

Looking at that, I honestly (and I mean honestly) can't see what Hamilton is supposed to have done wrong.

He lets Kimi through and then simply outbreaks him at the next turn.

What possible advantage could he have got from slipstreaming Kimi anyway? The cars were all over the place in the wet, so they were both trying to go slower and steadier. Hamilton had more than enough power on tap without slipstreaming to do what he did.

I think the harshness of the penalty has something to do with having to give a 25 second penalty if less then 3 laps remaining and someone gets a drive-thru/stop go offence. or somethign similar

Quote from Rappa Z :

Did anyone else notice, it looked like Kimi's left rear was flat after he crashed?

of course it was,it hit the wall,watch the clips again.
Tango

for all this apex and lines discussion is irrelevent...

ok kimi forced lewis wide, i see no problem with that both did what that had to do right there, lweis decidedes to go for the safer option and take the run-off, now this is where it gets messy..

lewis take the road and comes out infront of kimi, you can see for your self he backed off, he initialy had 2x the amount of momentum than kimi, so i think lewis did a prety good job to do what he did and not loose him all together, but this is where the FIA gets aa bit nutty...

you show me 1 fia ruling where it outlines the rules on giving a possition back and STILL not gaining an advantage????

so what they are saying here is lewis or the team should have calculated in 3 tenths of a second the speed advantage lewis carried through there and then the angular advantge of cutting the corner, calculate that all together and get the total advantage lewis got, then look in the fia rule book and see how far lewis must drop back to make sure he hasnt got a advantage, ITS IMPOSSIBLE!!!!!!!!! and there is no sutch fia outlining...

the only way i can possibly see lewis could be guilty is if the data shows lewis nailed the throttle again BEFOR the actual possistion was given back, but the fia havent said anying of the like witch would explain all this in 1 sentence..

how any times have we seen this guys i mean really, countless times, and as long as the possition is given back thats end off story,..

ive watched the reply several times now and if they were looking at BOTH cars like they say then kimi should be nailed to, that weaving buisness "IS" breaking FIA reg's so why did kimi get away with that??..

you carnt say, lewis was still punnished even though kimi crashed becasue its the rules end of! and in the same breath say we didnt pinish kimi because he crashed, the FIA are bunch of self obsessive tarts with ego's bigger bernnies savings account..

all this is so unfair its unreal, i was on the f1 site just and one guys made a good point, and i quote "The purpose of the stewards is to ensure fairness, not institute arbitrary penalties. How is it fair to Nick Heidfeld's competitors in the drivers championship to award him two extra points he did not earn?"

im not sticking with any driver on this one cus no one realy did anything to scream and shout about, kimi's weaving was the biggest breach but that wasnt worth a enquiry, i wasnt going to to watch this race to begin with due to f1 being so boring of late, but this takes the pi$$..

some said on here that the f1 big guns dont want to race anymore just want a sponser parrade, and i couldnt agree more, everytime we see any kind of action nowadays there is a fecking fia party, complete waste of time, and i think if it wasnt for the love of racing and the money they get paid i think the drivers would be walking to, its got that bad

Quote from dungbeetle :

Thanks for that chunky.

Looking at that, I honestly (and I mean honestly) can't see what Hamilton is supposed to have done wrong.

He lets Kimi through and then simply outbreaks him at the next turn.

What possible advantage could he have got from slipstreaming Kimi anyway? The cars were all over the place in the wet, so they were both trying to go slower and steadier. If anything, Hamilton may have even lost downforce (and hence grip) by being directly behind Kimi.

By going over the chicane, being ahead and then letting Kimi through he was in a position to fight at the next corner. That position was earned by going over the chicane. Just the same as Alonso in 2005.

Perhaps he would have been in that position if he had followed Kimi through the chicane. Perhaps not. Doesn't matter - he was where he was because he cut the chicane. There is nothing in the rules about letting a driver past you making you immune to the rules. You must drive on the track at all times. If you don't and you gain from doing so then say Hello to Mr Penalty.

Quote from Storm_Cloud :

There is nothing in the rules about letting a driver past you making you immune to the rules. You must drive on the track at all times. If you don't and you gain from doing so then say Hello to Mr Penalty.

that would mean about !4! 25 sec penalties a race then

That video shows the incident much more clearly, Hamilton did a great job to avoid going into the back of Kimi. I don't think he was even attempting a pass at that point but had to get off the brakes to avoid a crash, then realised he had a chance and went for it. But Kimi let off the brakes and ran him out wide, by the time Lewis realised that Kimi was not going to give him the corner he had no option but to use the run off area, then it sounds like he lifted the throttle to let Kimi past again.

I think the way the stewards have justified this is by looking at the gap before the braking zone, and after Hamilton cut the turn, which is plain stupid because Hamilton was gaining on Kimi at such a rate that he was making up 2 or 3 car lengths in each braking zone.

Massa has decided to wade into this too, saying Hamilton should have waited and tried a few turns later, this from a guy who said he settled for 3rd and was racing for championship points from the start, despite getting in a position to battle for the lead in the early laps. Personally I hate it when drivers decide before a race that they will just give up and not risk anything to win. I respect Hamilton and Kimi for racing for the win, more so with Hamilton who had much more to lose but still risked everything to win the race, that's the attitude of a champion, Massa is a fast number 2 driver.

I have a very strong view on this, but it's not my place to judge, as I'm not qualified enough to say who was right or wrong in this case. HOWEVER ...

Here is something that a certain German driver did a couple of years ago, and it went unpunished. I think it's a fair comparison to make ...

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=-5UnPeyzcHM

Decide for yourself

Quote from Rappa Z :

Did anyone else notice, it looked like Kimi's left rear was flat after he crashed?

One could think Ferrari would have officially announced if that was the reason for the spin.

Quote from dawguk :

I have a very strong view on this, but it's not my place to judge, as I'm not qualified enough to say who was right or wrong in this case. HOWEVER ...

Here is something that a certain German driver did a couple of years ago, and it went unpunished. I think it's a fair comparison to make ...

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=-5UnPeyzcHM

Decide for yourself

OMFG LOL lets send it to the fia and see what they have to say, lol thats so lame it hurts... and yea near a carbon copy of sundays evenst too...

=-=-= i was just watching replays again and ya gota give it to the gerry's they know how to build a race track, possibly the best on the callender

People will say the same thing they always do with that incident Schumacher was ahead, so he didn't gain an advantage...apart from avoiding being overtaken of course.

Quote from ATC Quicksilver :

People will say the same thing they always do with that incident Schumacher was ahead, so he didn't gain an advantage...apart from avoiding being overtaken of course.

Well its kinda different though... Hamilton let Kimi back and outbraked him on the following corner. Schumy (the red car *cough*) cut completly, lifted and went back on the throttle right after and as the other car was going to pass and get back to its original position before he cut he squeezes him towards the grass and keeps going...

If Hamilton hadn't had cut I'm pretty sure it would of ended up in a collision and he'd still get a penalty for it. Those run offs are there for safety, well he used it for safety and gave back the advantage lost. Not his fault that Kimi has been braking 20 kms early in all corners ever since the water started falling. The advantage he had is that he knew how to brake properly in the rain and managed to outbrake mister Kimi...

Also, I'm puzzled as to how someone can have momentum when he slows down in the middle of a straight to let someone by and doesn't catch his slipstream.

Quote from deggis :

One could think Ferrari would have officially announced if that was the reason for the spin.

Looking at that vid posted by Chunky you can hear a sudden blip of revs just before he looses the back end. Its my guess his foot probably slipped or jerked a bit when he hit a bump in the run off area .

Anyway, to my mind Chunkys vid proves what most rational folk in here have been saying since yesterday afternoon. Lewis was hard done by and didn't deserve the penalty. Lets hope the result is amended.

It looked great on Bernie TV

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWNN5W_B-Zk

Just watched Chunky's vid and why was he not focused on the road??? He pressed a button and straight away went spinning O_O.

Quote from dawguk :

I have a very strong view on this, but it's not my place to judge, as I'm not qualified enough to say who was right or wrong in this case. HOWEVER ...

Here is something that a certain German driver did a couple of years ago, and it went unpunished. I think it's a fair comparison to make ...

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=-5UnPeyzcHM

Decide for yourself

I guess this pretty much nullifies my point about the FIA being consistent regarding the Alonso/Klien incident and the Lewis/Kimi incident.

So, Hyperactive is right of course, two similar decisions don't make consistency. At all.

Aside from the debate, I think it's amazing to watch Hamilton drive Raikkonen down in that extended onboard footage. And remember that Raikkonen isn't exactly a slouch in the wet - he laps about as fast as everyone else except Hamilton does. Hamilton's just an absolute demon.

Quote from AdamW :

Aside from the debate, I think it's amazing to watch Hamilton drive Raikkonen down in that extended onboard footage. And remember that Raikkonen isn't exactly a slouch in the wet - he laps about as fast as everyone else except Hamilton does. Hamilton's just an absolute demon.

Always easier to chase in those circumstances than to lead At least being the following driver you can get an idea of whether or not the driver in front is having difficulties.

Quote from keiran :

Always easier to chase in those circumstances than to lead At least being the following driver you can get an idea of whether or not the driver in front is having difficulties.

yh that's why they all kept up with Hamilton in Silver... oh no they didn't they were all destroyed

that Macca + Lewis in those conditions is almost unbeatable...

fair or not fair, hamilton needs to realize that he's not in GP2 anymore, and that the world champion is going to defend his line, even if he does get outbraked on the outside, and the fact that he lifted for a moment doesn't absolve him of breaking the rules. he had 3 choices, tuck in before the chicane, tuck in after he realized he was being squeezed out, or cut the chicane, and he chose wrong. furthermore, he should feel lucky he didn't get an additional penalty for the weaving he did between eau rouge and les combes immediately after. that was downright dangerous.

It would have been almost impossible to tuck in before the chicane because he braked so much later then kimi after dodging him. He could and probably should have tucked in when he realized he was getting squeezed out but at the time he realized it and cut the chicane if he had slowed down he would've caught on Kimi's rear left wheel and probably damaged both cars. And finally the third which was cutting the track.

Imo, he should've tried to tuck in behind Kimi. But I also think that Kimi pushing Hamilton out wasn't right either so his action to avoid a collision is ok imo. You have half split second to think about this not 5 minutes to take the right decision. It's normal that you think someone is abut to hit me, what do I do, get out of the way (with the steering.)