Dont know whether to post this in this section(General Racing Talk) or Off Topic but as its about racing team simulators I will just post it here.

What software do F1 teams use? Are they made just for them or do they all use the same software but have it modified? Are the physics any good and the tracks life like(bumps etc) or is it just simple physics and not so life like tracks (no bumps etc) just to familerise yourself with the track.
What is the best software released to the public which is very very similar to that of what F1 teams use. I would like some information on what there simulators are like, I have searched but no luck, I guess they are probably secret so other teams dont know information about each others simulators.
I was watching the Williams F1 teams program on Eurosport or Sky Sports, think it was Eurosports and when one of the drivers was going in for a session on the simulator it didn't allow you to see it as they said that your not allowed in to the simulator room, confidential, secret etc, they only let you see the information from the simulator going to the engineers on the computers changing that cars setup etc...

So what are F1 teams simulators like in terms of how good the physics are, how life like they are and so on...

There is a video of Williams' simulator in action on the ITV F1 site. The only commercially available simulator to claim to be used by an F1 team as a simulator (for drivers rather than promotional work like LFS/rF) is nK. The Singtel free release is claimed to be a slightly modified version of the car used by an F1 team for testing (namely the differential model is a conventional clutch pack rather than whatever the team actually runs).

I see, I know there is a video of the Williams Simulator, going around Singapore, I would like to see videos though of Ferrari's and Mclaren's simulators, bet they are pretty advanced and leave a hole in your pocket. Is there anywhere you can find information about their simulators?

Williams sim videos, Singapore:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zpCT-GgAYk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhxAGIxat60

Mark Blundell (this has been shown on ITV last year) and then MotoGP driver James Toseland tests it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3KUfd4v0Gg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVNAN7FDjbU

And it's not Netkar.

Does not look like Williams is too secretive about it. But honestly it does not look that special after all. Take LFS/iRacing/nKp, steal some tyre data from F1 team and improve the physics accordingly, get a huge curved screen and Force Dynamics 401 and it's probably not that bad experience for the price of 1/10(0) of this Williams sim.

Copy paste from Atlas F1, originally posted by respected and trusted poster AFCA:

Quote :

In the middle of July McLaren sent a roadcar (undoubtedly a Mercedes) to the Valencia circuit to do many many laps round it. At the back of the car a laser measurement system was mounted which, square centimetre after square centimetre, measured each and every bump and kerbstone.

This data was then fed to the simulator in Woking. In order to get a picture as close to reality as possible two other parametres were necessary also. With GPS the track was measured accurate to a millimetre. And then the team also took a close look to video footage of an onboard camera of a Formula 3 car. Whitmarsh: "That gave a three dimensional image of the background. The drivers realistically see all the walls, the advertising boards in the distance and buildings around the circuit." Hamilton as well as Kovalainen did 120 virtual laps in the simulator.

The roadcar used by McLaren will also be driving round the Singapore track.

Ferrari carried out their simulation work at Fiat's research centre at Orbassano. "It's only a better version of a playstation", it's being said in Maranello. The simulator that is being developed in cooperation with Moog will not be ready before the end of 2009.

The only team that has a similar system to that of McLaren is Williams. Before the European GP Nakajima did 70 laps in the simulator in Grove, Rosberg 50. The Japanese managed to do a 1.37.5, in reality he was able to go nine tenths faster. Red Bull is working hard on being well equipped in this area also: their simulator should be ready in December. But Coulthard seems content without one also: "My two laps on a scooter on Wednesday before the race probably told me more than 100 laps in the simulator."

Vettel prefers an even more simple way: ''I just walked the circuit a few times. This way you collect better information than in any other way.''

BMW Sauber isn't planning on having such a simulator. In Hinwil the possibilities are there (in terms of hardware for instance) to build one but the Swiss-German team isn't going to, Theissen: "(To have one) we should at least invest a double-digit million sum of money."

So not that many seems to have simulators. LMAO at Coulthard's comment, probably true though.

Must post this, slightly amusing comment by Hamilton just before Brazilian GP last year, from this interview:

Quote :

Will you use the McLaren simulator to prepare for the race in Brazil?
"There are no plans to use it but can if I want to."

Why would you not use it?
"I only use it if I come into the McLaren Technology Centre for development work on the car. I don’t really gain an advantage physically or mentally from it. I’ve played Brazil many times on the Playstation. I play it with my brother and I’ve always won!"

And Interlagos was a new track to him

Quote from sam93 :

Dont know whether to post this in this section(General Racing Talk) or Off Topic but as its about racing team simulators I will just post it here.

What software do F1 teams use? Are they made just for them or do they all use the same software but have it modified? Are the physics any good and the tracks life like(bumps etc) or is it just simple physics and not so life like tracks (no bumps etc) just to familerise yourself with the track.
What is the best software released to the public which is very very similar to that of what F1 teams use. I would like some information on what there simulators are like, I have searched but no luck, I guess they are probably secret so other teams dont know information about each others simulators.
I was watching the Williams F1 teams program on Eurosport or Sky Sports, think it was Eurosports and when one of the drivers was going in for a session on the simulator it didn't allow you to see it as they said that your not allowed in to the simulator room, confidential, secret etc, they only let you see the information from the simulator going to the engineers on the computers changing that cars setup etc...

So what are F1 teams simulators like in terms of how good the physics are, how life like they are and so on...

It's not top-secret, but the simulators are usually custom-made for a team. I know that the Williams' simulator is a custom design.

Videos of simulators are not really secret, but IP rights must be respected. What becomes dodgy is if someone physically can use the simulator and obtain physical and logical details, like the mathematical modelling and such. Those with the right know-how can then glean technical information about the cars themselves.

Don't expect those simulators to be physically very accurate in terms of raw numbers. Simulators simulate, not recreate, and that means some physical modelling is faked rather than physically correct. You need to also bear in mind that F1 simulators are used to learn tracks rather than the car, so the simulators handle polygons many times the amount that a normal PC-based sim (like LFS) handles. It's one of the reasons why those kind of simulators have crap graphics compared to PC-based sims. Computing power is limited, and some sacrifices are needed.

The key thing to simulate in an F1 team's simulator is track accuracy; physical behaviour is probably a secondary consideration, although judging by some videos, the behavioural models seem at least as good as top-of-the-line PC-based sim games.

As an aside, BMW and Toyota don't have simulators. RBR has one, but STR probably doesn't. McLaren has one. Renault has a "playstation". Force India probably doesn't have one. Not sure about Ferrari.

The netKar Pro engine has definitely been employed by one of the F1 teams in some form, which isn't that surprising. It is a step above the competition really.

Concensus was that it was Williams because of the BRD connection, but that's just been ruled out, so I guess Toyota would be the best bet given the Singtel thing had a Toyota in it and Kunos has Japanese connections. You'd think they could afford to develop their own in-house really, but there we go. Or maybe they did and hired Kunos for it.

Whatever happens, that seems to be the reason nkPro fizzled out so quickly.

The Williams one looks very fake though, as though they switched off the 'handling' section in the physics code for the videos. It doesn't look as alive as either nK, LFS or real life.

Quote from durbster :

Concensus was that it was Williams because of the BRD connection, but that's just been ruled out, so I guess Toyota would be the best bet given the Singtel thing had a Toyota in it and Kunos has Japanese connections. You'd think they could afford to develop their own in-house really, but there we go.

Timo Glock said in an interview just prior to the Singapore GP that Toyota doesn't have a simulator.

A lot of F1 teams and sponsors have BRD connections - Williams, Toyota, Shell, Intel, Esso, Bosch, etc. BRD is undoubtedly a leader in the business of producing car simulation packages.

McLaren have reputedly the best simulator of the lot. It can simulate track debris, dirt, weather changes, tyre wear, engine conditions, and more... at a handy price of over GBP 20 million. They've basically stuck one up FIA's testing restrictions. Renault's one is rubbish, according to Alonso; he and Piquet used the one at Wirth Research to prepare for Valencia, which is a much more advanced simulator.

Here's an article on Jaguar's old simulator, which RBR has no doubt inherited: http://www.europeancarweb.com/ ... ving_simulator/index.html

Quote from samjh :

Timo Glock said in an interview just prior to the Singapore GP that Toyota doesn't have a simulator.

A lot of F1 teams and sponsors have BRD connections - Williams, Toyota, Shell, Intel, Esso, Bosch, etc. BRD is undoubtedly a leader in the business of producing car simulation packages.

McLaren have reputedly the best simulator of the lot. It can simulate track debris, dirt, weather changes, tyre wear, engine conditions, and more... at a handy price of over GBP 20 million. They've basically stuck one up FIA's testing restrictions. Renault's one is rubbish, according to Alonso; he and Piquet used the one at Wirth Research to prepare for Valencia, which is a much more advanced simulator.

Here's an article on Jaguar's old simulator, which RBR has no doubt inherited: http://www.europeancarweb.com/ ... ving_simulator/index.html

£20million, I'll take two Who make Mclarens simulator, wouldn't it be great if Scawebn got a go on one and then was able to try and develop the physics in LFS even better then what they are at the moment.

The coding that has gone into Mclarens simulators must be a lot. When I was watching the program about Williams F1 team, someone won a trip to the factory and they got a go on a simulator, not the one they used even though they said it is the one they used but I don't think they use Rfactor that the simulator was using what the person who won a trip there was using.

Quote from durbster :

Concensus was that it was Williams because of the BRD connection, but that's just been ruled out, so I guess Toyota would be the best bet given the Singtel thing had a Toyota in it and Kunos has Japanese connections. You'd think they could afford to develop their own in-house really, but there we go. Or maybe they did and hired Kunos for it.

Jaap (at RSCnet) said it's not Williams and then Kunos said it's not Toyota either. Some of the file names have Toyota on them but it's irrelevant.

Just my perception: Kunos wasn't hired, but BRD.

Really like to see how advanced the best BRD motion platform is... this one at least looks primitive.

Quote from samjh :

McLaren have reputedly the best simulator of the lot. It can simulate track debris, dirt, weather changes, tyre wear, engine conditions, and more... at a handy price of over GBP 20 million.

I remember last year it was often reported to cost 40 million GBP. Sounds quite incredible regarding that McLaren's whole yearly budget is about 250 million GBP (source Formula Money 2008 publication). Of course only the sky is the limit if they take no compromise approach, use only NASA-approved materials and so on...

Quote from durbster :

Concensus was that it was Williams because of the BRD connection, but that's just been ruled out, so I guess Toyota would be the best bet given the Singtel thing had a Toyota in it and Kunos has Japanese connections. You'd think they could afford to develop their own in-house really, but there we go. Or maybe they did and hired Kunos for it.

It has been confirmed that it isn't Toyota.

Quote from samjh :

Don't expect those simulators to be physically very accurate in terms of raw numbers.

Certainly in the case of the team using nK the modeling of certain components is very detailed, namely the diffs and the public version is still much more detailed than LFS/rF.

Quote :

RBR has one, but STR probably doesn't.

They're the same organisation.

Quote from deggis :

Really like to see how advanced the best BRD motion platform is... this one at least looks primitive.

Presumably there's a much larger market for smaller less expensive motion simulators, both for smaller teams to use in house and at shows/entertainment venues.

Quote from ajp71 :

They're the same organisation.

What I mean is in their headquarters. RBR has one, and it's probably Jaguar's old simulator they've inherited. But STR is based in another country and I don't think Minardi or Spyker ever had a simulator.

Quote from samjh :

Here's an article on Jaguar's old simulator, which RBR has no doubt inherited: http://www.europeancarweb.com/ ... ving_simulator/index.html

isnt that gp4 by crammond?

Just looked up some GP4 screenshots, and it sure does look like it!

Dug up Autosport.com news archive:

Quote :

Button: "I have spent some time on our simulator at the factory this week to familiarise myself as much as possible with the track layout before we get there."

Barrichello: "I have driven the circuit on our simulator which gives you a good idea of how the lap will be laid out and the braking points, however it doesn't give you any projection of how it is going to be racing under the lights!"

Brawn: "To prepare for the new track, both our drivers have been working on the simulator at our Brackley headquarters which assists with learning the track layout, gears and downforce levels."

September 22nd 2008, http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/70773

Also:

Button: "We have a simulator at our UK base, as do most teams, and spending a lot of time on that has been vital in terms of learning the circuit. With a simulator, you're not getting the complete feeling of the car but you are gaining understanding of the distances and the braking points, so it's very useful."

August 15th 2008, http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/69793

samjh's guess (?) was right, Red Bull has but Toro Rosso does not:

Quote :

Vettel: "We have no simulator so there is no chance to simulate."

August 24th 2008, http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/70026

Quote :

Red Bull Racing's Mark Webber will try the circuit in a computer simulator, but doesn't expect it to give him a full picture of what to expect. "We've got a few things we do, simulators are a way to get your head around the track and then you calibrate all that into what we do," he told autosport.com.

Heidfeld: "We don't have a simulator like other teams do, but we have some on paper so I can see speeds, braking, and gears, things like that so we can look at the profile," he told autosport.com. "I will try and get some footage and I've already seen something on the internet." "It helps a bit, I think walking the circuit, driving it, and watching the footage is better (than a simulator) as it gives you a rough idea."

August 19th 2008, http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/69885

Might be totally wrong memory but I remember Kimi disliking Ferrari's sim because of motion sickness.

Quote :

Q. Is the Williams simulator helpful?
Nakajima: Yes it is good enough to learn the tracks.

Q. Are you situated in a cockpit when you use it?
Nakajima: Yes kind of, but we haven't got simulated g-force and the car doesn't move but the steering input is quite realistic.

Q. Do you spend a lot of time in it?
Nakajima: Yes. To learn a track especially. We can also practice my driving which is quite useful and we can try set-up changes and things.

Q. Does Nico use it as well?
Nakajima: Yes I think so but maybe not as much as me, because I live close to the factory so it is easy for me to go there. I go whenever I have the time but recently I have been quite busy!

Q. Is it physically or mentally tiring?
Nakajima: It is more of a mental thing, but the steering can be hard after a while.

Q. Is it true that some drivers get carsick when they use simulators?
Nakajima: Yes some drivers do suffer from motion sickness. You basically sit in a dark room with a big screen in front of you. It's no problem for me though.

February 27th 2008, http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/65340

Quote :

Q: Lewis, a brand new circuit for you. Have you walked around it and principally have you tried it on the simulator?
Hamilton: It's my first... I literally got here to the track an hour ago and I've not yet had the time to walk it, but I will do after this and no, I've not been on the simulator.

Q: Would the simulator help?
Hamitlon: If it did I would have done it.

Q: So you don't really feel it's that much of a help.
Hamilton: I think the first computer game that I played, the first race was Brazil, so I have an idea where it goes and it's always one of my favourites, most of the time the end of season race and so I have a really good idea of where the corners are and I'm looking forward to getting out there.

October 18th 2007, http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63395

I had a go in a Williams simulator a couple of years back. They bought into work as our company were doing some windtunnel work for them and provided some small (drivers helmets) sponnsorship.
It was basically just an old Williams F1 Chassis with a cutsom FF wheel (resembeling a proper F1 wheel) & pedals, with a widescreen attached to the top running what looked like F1 Career Challenge, (complete with ABS and auto gear shift driving aids enabled!). Gotta say after having just started playing LFS shortly before I wasn't particularly impressed by it as a simulator!

Dunno if they have a different rig for the drivers to use, or if they'll have updated the one I tried recently as it wouldn't have had the new circuits on, but I think most of them are probably based on your commercial driving "sims" . All the drivers say they're ok for getting an idea of which way the track goes, but not much more than that.


Si.

Quote from Si01 :

I had a go in a Williams simulator a couple of years back. They bought into work as our company were doing some windtunnel work for them and provided some small (drivers helmets) sponnsorship.
It was basically just an old Williams F1 Chassis with a cutsom FF wheel (resembeling a proper F1 wheel) & pedals, with a widescreen attached to the top running what looked like F1 Career Challenge, (complete with ABS and auto gear shift driving aids enabled!). Gotta say after having just started playing LFS shortly before I wasn't particularly impressed by it as a simulator!

Dunno if they have a different rig for the drivers to use, or if they'll have updated the one I tried recently as it wouldn't have had the new circuits on, but I think most of them are probably based on your commercial driving "sims" . All the drivers say they're ok for getting an idea of which way the track goes, but not much more than that.


Si.

I think the drivers are hiding their true use for obvious reasons. I heavily doubt that Williams provided you with their in-house sim,

I can't imagine teams investing SO much money in hiring a team of people to develop these sims just so the drivers can 'learn the tracks'. That would be a complete nonsense because you can do that on a 200 quid playstation.

Quote from Si01 :

I had a go in a Williams simulator a couple of years back. They bought into work as our company were doing some windtunnel work for them and provided some small (drivers helmets) sponnsorship.
It was basically just an old Williams F1 Chassis with a cutsom FF wheel (resembeling a proper F1 wheel) & pedals, with a widescreen attached to the top running what looked like F1 Career Challenge, (complete with ABS and auto gear shift driving aids enabled!). Gotta say after having just started playing LFS shortly before I wasn't particularly impressed by it as a simulator!

Dunno if they have a different rig for the drivers to use, or if they'll have updated the one I tried recently as it wouldn't have had the new circuits on, but I think most of them are probably based on your commercial driving "sims" . All the drivers say they're ok for getting an idea of which way the track goes, but not much more than that.


Si.

check the videos on youtube, it's much more than just a widescreen now.

The sims can't be for aero analysis, as computers are not powerful enough to have a real time CFD simulation of sufficient complexity.
The sims can't be for tyre analysis, as nobody at all really REALLY understands how they work well enough to simulate it, and the teams still get caught out at most circuits.
The sims can't be for bumps, because all the teams got caught out at Singapore, yet had apparently scanned the track.

So one can deduce that they probably have two benefits - allowing a driver to learn a track a bit (though they'll still be pretty green when they get out for their first session), and to try different driving styles with the sim fudged a bit to make it give the appropriate feedback to assist the driver's adaption to change.

Quote from JJ72 :

check the videos on youtube, it's much more than just a widescreen now.

Yes, I've just been having a read over lunch, seems it's something that's developed a hell of a lot in the last few years. There's a place a Bicester charging 7000 euros a day for hire of their kit!!
Specifics about the software they use are pretty scarce though, other than a few vague detials about laser & GPS surface scanning and the like. I guess it's all very proprietry. I'd love a go on one though!

Those sims are nowhere close LFS or any of this other sim ether.

I really hate when TV commentators talk about those simulations that f1 teams use and how sophisticated they are, no where close "games". They should put their head out of sand and try those "games" a bit.

So we can conclude that sims aren't very good for leanring a track in enough specific detail to achieve fast lap times. I agree with that

However, if the drivers say thats what they only good for then whhy the hell are the teams spending so much money. hiring a guy like Kunos from NetKar to develop their sims would be pointless?

There must be something in it.

because it is relatively pocket change from doing real test? (or maybe just that rules limits their running time alot nowadays), or maybe it's a foundation for the future, when it can be developed to run realistic test on strategies. for a long term it might be useful, since you can test anytime you like in any sort of conditions you wanted.

I can understand why mclaren spend so much on it though, it's their corporate culture to spend a trillion dollars on even the simpliest stuff like cupholders.

Is there? They spend millions of pounds to refine the shape on an end plate for a single track. I think trying to get a team of people to work on a sim (plus the mechanic side of it too) that is as up-to-date as the car at every stage (i.e. working when the car first turns a wheel in February or whenever), including various tweaks and mechanical changes (such as to test visibility issues with 'X-wings' etc), and sending that team to take photos and laser-scan/GPS-scan all the tracks regularly (in case something changes)... I can see that costing millions quite quickly.

Sadly it doesn't mean that the sim is necessarily any better than commercial sims overall - look at that Williams clip. The vehicle dynamics look rubbish!

Quote from Intrepid :

However, if the drivers say thats what they only good for then whhy the hell are the teams spending so much money. hiring a guy like Kunos from NetKar to develop their sims would be pointless?

There must be something in it.

The price is peanuts, a small motion simulator and some modified software (ie. rF) would soon pay off for a team running in national level motorsport for basic driver training and improvement, testing at any circuit will benefit a driver wherever he goes, obviously the same circuit for testing and racing will have a greater improvement but simply getting virtual track time (even in a different but similar type of car) at a fantasy circuit will help improve drivers techniques and give them far more time to try different things. The cost to an F1 team to create a relitively advanced simulator in house is still unlikely to be greater than the tea budget.