But my point was purely about what does and doesn't constitute a criminal offense.
There is a world of difference, in my eyes at least, between saying something or acting in some way that some people find offensive and commiting a criminal act.
As Voltaire once said: "I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."
I've always maintained that it is "intent" that is important not how something is perceived. If somebody does something that didn't intend to offend but ended up causing offense to somebody else, then to my mind the worst they can be accused of is bad taste/lack of tact. Even if these supporters were intending to be offensive to hamilton as a black person, what of it? There is a gulf of difference between expressing offensive views and actually causing harm to someone because of belief in those views. Don't be naieve enough to believe that just because a couple of idiots paint their faces black that we're in danger of regressing back to the dark days of slavery, because it's just not going to happen. Stupidity isn't a criminal offense, and I would fear for any society that chose to make it one. We should be shaking our heads with pity for those people over the whole situation and moving on, not expressing indignant outrage over it. I fear the term racist has grown to become all encompasing and hence the true horror of its meaning has been diminished. Hitler was a racist, members of the KKK are racists, people that are willing to oppress, beat, maim and kill others just because of a difference in skin colour are racists. There is a chasm of difference between true racism and bigoted prejudice as expressed by some idiotic sports supporters.
Pity and sadness for the fools in the crowd, indignant outrage for the people who you though you knew and who's reaction you are shocked by.
They are one and the same! both are 'true' the only 'difference' is in levels of severity.
Oppression isn't just physical and violent, it can be and usually is much more subtle: a school teacher having lower expectations of a child due to their race; a worker being passed over for promotion; a fan base being hyper critical of a sports star. It's these types of oppression that are often committed without conscious intent that are the most pervasive and the most difficult to prevent.
Please, do refrain from posting uninformated attempts of xenophobia. Thank you.
Neither every spaniard is racist, neither you can tell what's going on in Spain as what you just typed exists on your brain and biased xenophobist UK media.
Based on your comments, I can only express my disgust to your attitude and lack of open-mindness. You are certainly as bad as those people who you criticize by bringing xenophobia into the conversation.
If, if, if. Conditions don't make situations, facts do. Two guys amongst over one hundred thousand do make spaniards racist. You're welcome to put some logic into that, since skinhead movement was born in England a couple of decades ago, they were far more in number, did bigger trouble than those poor couple of idiots (who said they were spaniards, actually?) and England was not excluded of any sport. There is no actual evidence that they were not Hamilton supporters, there is no actual recording as far as I know that they were shouting abusive words, but there is evidence that by february, every year, there's Carnival party in Spain, which means people dresses up as someone or something else and has fun.
Then again, plenty of people seems to be over-affected and prefers to believe the 'ifs'. Their choice. But don't mask the 'if' to make it the truth.
Thanks for putting some sense in this thread.
@ OP : I honestly think that Ecclestone is right. People is being overly deffensive towards certain driver whose initials are L.H. and are destroying lots of things in the way. They doubt FIA, they put the stamp of racism to other countries and use xenophobic arguments out of fanboyerism. I can't think of what's worst. Then again, it's only an oppinion, but this time from someone who is living in Spain and is seeing what's going on every day, alas an informed one.
I would not go as far as saying every Spaniard is racist, just like I would not go as far as to say every American is a redneck, or every Canadian is a lumberjack, or every Brit is a chav, well on second thoughts, ignore that last one.
However it does seem that racism isn't tackled all that well in Spain, Link 1, Link 2, Link 3 and I suspect there is more of that kicking around the web and I bet you could find something like it in every country going, it is how it is dealt with that makes the difference.
Now I don't know what action was taken after those photos hit the intarwebnet in Spain, but I do know if it happened here the media would be calling for everyone involved to be beheaded/stuck on spikes/sacked/fined/banned for life/whatever for the world to see that there is no place for racism in sport.
Wow, you seem to be attributing things to me that I have never said or even implied.
I've never mentioned 'Spaniards' or the Spanish people, I've only spoken of the guys who were blacked up and of discussion relating to them here and from Eccleston I certainly didn't mention their nationality as that was not relevant to the discussion I was taking part in.
Get your damn facts right before you start accusing people of being xenophobic - a good place to start would be to actually read what folks actually say rather than just invent whatever suits your point best!
As far as picking on the 'if conditions' in my post, maybe you didn't notice that there were exactly two - one for each possible answer of a true/false question, it certainly wasn't an argument based on multiple compound uncertanties as you seem to be implying.. its as though you didn't actually read anything I said... hmmm...
Why is everybody so hell bent on shouting racism at every possible opportunity?
Fact: All men are created equal is a lie... Men (and women by the way) come in a lot of different flavors. Differences between them will always be used to ridicule or offend eachother.
If Lewis had ears the size of his hands, those people would've worn fake ears and done the exact same thing. It has nothing at all to do with racism. They don't hate him because he's black, they hate him because he's the one that beat Alonso, their fav. Anything that makes him stand out from the other drivers will be used to make fun of him. Lewis is dark-skinned, and no other drivers are... So what's the easiest part about Lewis to target for your hatred?
How often have you picked on the person in your class that wore those hideous braces? Or the girl with the red hair and millions of freckles on her face? That's in no way different than what they did here.
We shouldn't make a big deal out of it, unless Lewis gets kicked out of a team for no other reason than being black... THAT is racist. Being ridiculed by fans of your biggest opponent is not.
The biggest racists in the world are the people that work for/with those anti-racism groups, and that, my good sirs, is a fact.
The fact that they see his race as something about him that should be used as an object of ridicule is what makes them and their actions racist... the fact that you seem to be suggesting that his skin colour is "the easiest part about Lewis to target for your hatred" makes you seem like a racist as well - I hope this is just an unfortunate communication breakdown ?
Racism isn't just about hating someone for their race.
If you hate someone for a different reason and use their race as a focus for your hatred, that is also racist.
quite interesting what he said about bernie, the spanish and brasilian fans and lewis.
he said that no one should judge bernie till he has the oportunity to explain his remark but they should remember that bernie always tries to play down any story so it dies away or can be sorted behind closed doors and attempt to joke rather than make a serious comment so don't read anything into his comments or believe they always reflect his views.
the fans in brazil behaved no differently to any other fans, when DC was leading in italy they would boo when the tv showed him and chear when shumi was shown. when DC broke down he was spat at and had water thrown at him by the italians because he was fighting with ferrari and because he was " a very white" scots the papers made no story from it. also the "spanish idiots" were a very small part of the spanish crowd and fans and in no way represented the feelings of the whole country.
despite what you read in the papers, all the drivers get along fine and no one "hates" or dislikes lewis, its just the papers always try to build up the slightest disagreement and take it out of context.
if you assume DC was telling the truth, which he probably was given his reputation for speaking his mind ,it rather diffuses most of the current disagrements about F1 in the popular press.
hmmm lets see...
>Racism, by its simplest definition, is the belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism
nope nothing racist at all about that
Valentino Rossi went into this quite extensively in his autobiography regarding the supposed hatred between Rossi and Biaggi. Every little thing is made into a huge deal.
Link 1 comes from promotional purposes, the spanish basketball team was kind of forced to do that, it's not actually representing their will. Linked to the third link, those kind of gestures are meant more to sympathise with chinese people than to make fun out of them. Honestly, there is no racism involved but just the will to show that they're not so different.
About link 2, it's one of those few times it's actually 'right', even though you might want to read this line again as it sums things up pretty well :
So, nothing happens if they are made by some youngsters of other countries, but it's an issue if it's spaniards that make it? In all fairness, this is how I feel this 'racism' thing is being handled: If it comes from Spain, it's racism. If it comes from somewhere else, it's just a bunch of people being fools or using too much energy to express their feelings. Why is it this way is far above me.
I was making an example of your post, just picked it because it was showing the line of thought of many L.H.'s fans. Pick several 'if', turn it into a fact, and blame the guy confronting this. I'm sorry if you thought I was pointing at you, I was short on time and this part might have slipped out, so again, sorry, it wasn't a personal attack or anything close to that for that matter, it was more a reply to the underlying idea of your post.
Meaning is, from 4 possible answers of true or false, you're prone to use the one that suits best to your argument, and completely ignore the other 75%, hence the part of your post where you state the following :
So you are actually picking 'if' values as fact, as you don't let Gunn explain himself but rather go on and assume he has a view on the matter that might not be his at all. This is fine on a forum, as we're here to talk about things, but what I feel is wrong is the media toying with that same principle. Not long ago there was an interview made to Alonso, before the Brazilian race, where he said 'yeah, I'll do whatever it takes to help Massa win'. It was taken so much off context it was awful. I was seeing the live interview, and he was _laughing_ at the idea. If this doesn't give a clear view on how the media takes every bit of information and distorts it to their own interests, pretty much nothing will.
And no, this is not a personal matter, just an oppinion as to why we're actually talking about this while this subject should have died away a long time ago.
It's not as if you, personally, were saying each and every spaniard is/was racist. It's as if the hole of england (or at least english 'yellow' press, always looking for the scandal factor) would be thinking like that. I have seen several news sites were people is allowed to post comments, and their comments are far worse both in number and in hatred than whatever 'racist incident' has happened in spain the last few years.
On a sidenote : the 'growing racism problem in spanish football' ain't so. Most vids, news and links you might find are dated. There was a moment several years ago where it was a growing problem (even if taken out of context by the media. I remember one of those 'racist incidents' being people shouting 'boo' at Eto'o on a football match, being taken as racist, but in fact they were yelling at him because he costed millions to a poor team and performed well below the expectations). Now, thankfully, it's going down to the point of being not any bigger than on most other countries. Of course, there always is the british press to say I'm wrong, but I guess they don't live here, do they?
The focus of their hatred was the rivalry between both drivers, and the spanish-media assumed preference for L.H., while letting down F.A., by the Mercedes-McLaren team. While I won't start an argument about if this is true or not (useless waste of time, imo), it was very spread in Spain that L.H. was favored over the spaniard, probably another example of media distorsion.
They do not, I repeat NOT, hate him because he's black... They hate him because he beat their beloved Alonso. They just use his skin color to single him out, because that's the easiest thing to recognise him by. If they hated Kimi they'd all be wearing huge beerglasses on their heads and telling him he's a drunk...
That is racist only in the mind of narrowminded overly PC people.
Well we have a different kind of scumbag over here, Link 1, Link 2, but if anyone does any form of racism in the UK the red tops (The Sun and such) always go out for blood, unless it is them who does it, in which case it is fine (look back at the whole Jade Goodie/Big Brother racism mess, The Sun were out for blood, but if you flicked to the sports pages of the same paper on the same day they called a Chinese snooker player a Pot Noodle).
I won't exempt Britain from racism because it is rife here, just when it happens there is a veneer of action being taken to try and stop it. And as in South Park, it is fine to dislike anyone, but once that person has different coloured skin it is a hate crime. That slit eye thing might have been a promotional thing, but to say "it wasn't meant to cause offence" would be like calling someone a fat c**t and then saying "oh no offence intended."
That's something I tried to explain each and every time. If the whole of F1 had blond hair and he had brown hair, they would have painted their hair brown to make fun out of it. It's not about being racist but competition getting out of hand by some fans. It's a bad outcome, I agree, but the origins are not racism.
On the other side, you can see how it's not racism as word goes around amongst spanish F1 fans that Hamilton deserved the title more than anyone else, while if we go to statistics, he won by 1 point (so they do have a fact to hold on and say he didn't deserve, if they really did dislike him so much).
That's what I mean, actually. Here, we let the police and security on the stadiums do their job. I think they are the most adequate people to take care about it, on the place, at the time it happens. Whether they do their job or not, that's sadly another matter. I don't believe the press should have any role here but pointing at what failed/could be done better, meaning that by themselves, press ain't gonna jail anyone.
I know that part, and it's why I don't make any question about racism on UK, it's pretty well done the way it is to stop racism and it would be good to have that here also.
As you say, it's fine to dislike anyone, but once he's coloured it becomes a crime (which is funny, since if someone of caucasian race would abuse me, it may not be a crime, but the same abuse on a black person would mean the abuser would get in deep crap), which is pollitically correct but morally and ethically wrong, as justice is saying 'everyone is the same'. There's more than one conflict there.
About the slit eye, I always thought it was good to put your hands next to your ears to mimick elephants. Are you going to tell me I'm gonna get sued by them? I mean, it's not intended as offense but as a sympathy thing. It's not to make fun out of them but to say "we're not that different", more uniting than anything else. Is that a bad thing? Is this racism?
Yes, that is how I read it. And no I don't troll, why would I?
I'm not naive, perhaps ill-informed?
I'm glad for you that you feel sad, because that's exactly how you wanted to feel. Your dream is now fulfilled.
Why would my comments make you sad either way? Because you want me to be a racist? Give it up fool. Take your nonsense elsewhere. If you think a moderator should not express their opinions and thoughts then you have your head in the sand.
Do you think Eccelstone is trying to be racist? You imply it. I think he is not.
Thanks for filling me in with those details. Can you show me the evidence so that I can judge for myself? I agree that would be strange behaviour indeed.
I would say that racism in Spain it's not common, at least not against black people. Maybe a little racism in some regions against gypsies (as them being involved on drug selling and stealing), but more about their way of life than just their skin color...
In soccer there exist some fan groups that are really racist and their members are neo skins and fascist. Sadly they're supported by the teams in most of the ocassions... but that's another issue... they are just a few hundreds compared with the millions following soccer in Spain
About the photos of Pekin and the blacked people at Barcelona... well I think no one at Spain think of that as racism, mainly because we have not the racism as an daily isuue... just making some fun (beeing the blacked people some bad taste humour in my opinion )
I suppose you could say that a blog is hardly evidence, but it takes its information from a Spanish newspaper I have no access to, so verifiable it's not. Mind you, there's no link between the people in the picture and the chanting of the crowd, so you be the judge
It doesn't matter what they hate him for! The fact that they choose his race as the focus of their attack shows that they feel there is something inherently wrong with his race - to them it is worthy of ridicule - this makes them and their actions racist. It doesn't even matter if they realise this or intend it.
Its funny that in your defense of these people, you giving in part of your description of their actions a very concise definition of racism: "They just use his skin color to single him out".
I don't think he is 'trying' to be racist, I do believe that he is trying to make light of something extremely serious and that in doing so he seems to be defending the actions of racists hence my suggestion of complicity.
It's possible that he's just being 'clever' - courting controversy in order to generate more column inches for F1, after all, he doesn't care what people think of him as long as the money keeps rolling in.
Ecclestone back-pedalled like a mad man after making his initial comments. He now claims that "I meant they were a joke, clowns". Bullshit. In no way, can his previous comments be twisted in ANY fashion, to suggest that this is what he meant. The man is a complete idiot.
Also, as for the Spanish being racist - I have a very good friend who lives in Spain (ex-patriot), and is a journalist that reports on Football matches. He is continually shocked at the level of racism that exists in Spanish football. He does claim that it is much worse than in England.
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