Quote from 510N3D :

I guess observer really hits the nail right on the head.

Why is this relevant to the discussion? FYI... It's a reflection of the lack of competition (servers+players) outside the EU.

Clearly you are the glass-half full type of person. That's fine. The picture isn't as dim for those within the EU time zone.

If it wasn't for the overwhelming sentiment that I share with others, I would probably dismiss it as just me. Clearly that isn't the case from reading this thread.

Quote from Macfox :

Why is this relevant to the discussion? FYI... It's a reflection of the lack of competition (servers+players) outside the EU.

This has at least in part to do with the majority of server operators in our area choosing to go down the path of private servers, which I grant you does keep out high ping users from wondering in but also makes it hard for newcomers to find their way into an Aussie LFS experience, thus over time contirbuting to a decline in local numbers.
This is an opinion I've held ever since getting LFS back in 2004 and why I've rarely join a passworded pickup racing server. You could also throw that back at the developers and say they have been too slow to setup local support but none the less it is a choice we have made for better or worse.

Quote from Glenn67 :

This has at least in part to do with the majority of server operators in our area choosing to go down the path of private servers, which I grant you does keep out high ping users from wondering in but also makes it hard for newcomers to find their way into an Aussie LFS experience, thus over time contirbuting to a decline in local numbers.
This is an opinion I've held ever since getting LFS back in 2004 and why I've rarely join a passworded pickup racing server. You could also throw that back at the developers and say they have been too slow to setup local support but none the less it is a choice we have made for better or worse.

I have to say I was somewhat bemused when I finally stumbled across the many private Aussie servers.

Without knowing about them, I never saw them and probably missed out on a whole lot of racing. However I did find PRR and never looked back.

After I had bought S2 and logged on to find two servers with <300 ping, I almost pulled the pin right then and there.

That was possibly the case early on, but no so much of recent.

As a AU server provider, I get more players on the private servers than the public ones. Replicating popular EU server configs makes little difference.

Unless you join an AU league (often private), your unlikely to find any reasonable number of players on one server.

Macfox you are missing my point, that has created a culture of only driving on passworded servers which is still present today which in turn makes it less likely for new blood to find it's way into the system as bandaid aptly illustrates. Anyway I was just mentioning it as it is something that has bothered me for a long time

I share your sentiment. It's really a chicken/egg thing. We need players to return to the game to break that trend, but that won't happen until there's something to spark interest back in the game and hopefully it will then get to a critical mass, as in the EU.

I would like to hear some ideas thrown around about what we as LFS Community members can do to spark some more participation and enrolling new members to LFS.

I'll start:

In the Americas it seems to be mostly demo servers during prime time and while demo is great there seems to be not a lot of s1 and s2 races going on. I'm looking at getting a N. American server for ping attraction and keeping an admin around. Won't be a problem seeing as though I and a close racing buddy and I are one just about every night. FBM is a good class and seeing as how there are so many demo servers using this class on BL1 a step to other tracks would be nice change for some. I think there are a lot of drivers in the Americas that have S2, but end up in Demo for lack of S2 races going on. I also think there is a whole market of N. Americans that know nothing of LFS. Due the changing USD, LFS S2 is $15 dollars less then it was 10 or 11 months ago when I purchased it.

If anybody has experience with this or failed attempts or know of failed attempts I would like to know the details.

Jay

Quote from jbirdaspec :

N.American server stuff

To be perfectly honest whil you and others would make a small bit of difference it wouldn't change things too much. The reason I say this is because it seems the people who are complaining are on the basis of lfs is dead, no updates from the devs in terms of whats going on and no new patches etc.

I'd like to see ss soon as possible better interior graphic and improved sounds for all cars

How much you think we have to wait for S3?

And ... what we could expect from S3?

Most interiors have already been recently updated, a few are still to come though. The new stuff isn't exactly up to 'next gen' level, but they're a lot better than the old ones, which were starting to make LFS look very aged. I find the new interiors are perfectly acceptable though.

What will appear in S3 is anyone's guess. I don't think we'll begin to see dynamic weather and track surfaces until S3. A focus on graphics perhaps, sound, more cars and tracks... I'll guess that S2 will be finalised before this time next year (the latest XMAS), so I don't think we'll be waiting that long before the first fruits of S3 begin to show themselves. It will be a very long time before S3 is done though (atleast as long as S2, perhaps twice as long! ).

Quote from Macfox :

Why is this relevant to the discussion?

Well i was just guessing upon the numbers i've got available from you, such as online milage and forum activity (post count). With that in mind and seeing that you've been here for a long time, some of your comments doesn't make any sense (for me) somehow, at least when it comes to terms like "community engagement" & "participation". Again, im just guessing here and im not going to investigate nor getting any more into detail since its indeed not relevant to the actual discussion.

On the contrary, have a look at the people complaining about LFS, most of em are here for about 1- 3 years (or less) and the few that are here for even longer just got bored for serveral other reasons and/ or are still unable to understand the idea behind LFS.

Anyhow, i hope that i could bring my standpoint across within this thread and im not going to continue since we are going in circles at some point, if not already.

Quote from Electrik Kar :

Most interiors have already been recently updated, a few are still to come though. The new stuff isn't exactly up to 'next gen' level, but they're a lot better than the old ones, which were starting to make LFS look very aged. I find the new interiors are perfectly acceptable though.

What will appear in S3 is anyone's guess. I don't think we'll begin to see dynamic weather and track surfaces until S3. A focus on graphics perhaps, sound, more cars and tracks... I'll guess that S2 will be finalised before this time next year (the latest XMAS), so I don't think we'll be waiting that long before the first fruits of S3 begin to show themselves. It will be a very long time before S3 is done though (atleast as long as S2, perhaps twice as long! ).

Yes, the NEW interiors are ok. Especially the GTR cars, however the road cars are like.. ok.

What really needs doing are the LRF class, and just maybe an update from DX8 to DX9, obviously with a choice between the two for people with older computers.

A year to S2 final from now would just take the piss. It's been out for like 2 years already. It doesn't even take 3 years for some major games to be made, especially if they already have a running platform. Yes, they have bigger teams. But they also have much more work to do, cross platform porting, and the like.

On the topic of community engagement, the number of new subscriptions to the board or the number of posts are really misleading indicators.

The board as it is now IMO gives a distorted image of the community, with people arguing over and over about the same issues, the newcomers playing the part of the passionate LFS'ers and oldtimers often showing up as sour ****s with no real involvement in LFS and whose main occupation is beating noobs to death with their sarcastic comments.

The casual user who's going to check the boards will steer clear of them thinking 'this is a bunch a manics', if he/she is going to stick with LFS is not because of the boards but because he/she likes LFS despite the boards. And the demo servers, which are also giving out a bad image of what online racing is like in LFS (just look at the number of new threads opened in the beginners' section on this topic alone)

I think that really, if there are new people joining LFS without having friends in it already, they have survived through an obstacle course. It'd be no wonder if this could also work as an adverse selection mechanism which as final effect leaves LFS mostly with spammers and wreckers.

TBH I believe the iRacing guys took a deep look at what LFS has built (both good and bad sides), not just because they wanted to differentiate their product but also because they were aware of the detrimental effect of some shortcomings on overall partecipation.

Quote from NightShift :

The board as it is now IMO gives a distorted image of the community, with people arguing over and over about the same issues, the newcomers playing the part of the passionate LFS'ers and oldtimers often showing up as sour ****s with no real involvement in LFS and whose main occupation is beating noobs to death with their sarcastic comments.

Please don't refrain from posting examples.

Quote from NightShift :

The board as it is now IMO gives a distorted image of the community, with people arguing over and over about the same issues, the newcomers playing the part of the passionate LFS'ers and oldtimers often showing up as sour ****s with no real involvement in LFS and whose main occupation is beating noobs to death with their sarcastic comments.

Actually it's idiots who get the sarcastic comments, and there are plenty of well-established idiots around. Are you saying all noobs are idiots? Well I'm not surprised we don't get any new blood with attitudes like yours.

Quote from NightShift :

On the topic of community engagement, the number of new subscriptions to the board or the number of posts are really misleading indicators.

The board as it is now IMO gives a distorted image of the community, with people arguing over and over about the same issues, the newcomers playing the part of the passionate LFS'ers and oldtimers often showing up as sour ****s with no real involvement in LFS and whose main occupation is beating noobs to death with their sarcastic comments.

The casual user who's going to check the boards will steer clear of them thinking 'this is a bunch a manics', if he/she is going to stick with LFS is not because of the boards but because he/she likes LFS despite the boards. And the demo servers, which are also giving out a bad image of what online racing is like in LFS (just look at the number of new threads opened in the beginners' section on this topic alone)

I think that really, if there are new people joining LFS without having friends in it already, they have survived through an obstacle course. It'd be no wonder if this could also work as an adverse selection mechanism which as final effect leaves LFS mostly with spammers and wreckers.

TBH I believe the iRacing guys took a deep look at what LFS has built (both good and bad sides), not just because they wanted to differentiate their product but also because they were aware of the detrimental effect of some shortcomings on overall partecipation.

Although not arguing with what you're saying, ('cuz, tbh, I kind of agree in some ways) let's just put this into perspective.

LFS Forum members list shows 30548 registered users. I spent 30 seconds going through to see how many people had 0 posts, and this was around page 630. (30 per page)

I'm fairly confident that it'd be another 630 pages before we begin to see any active users of these forums. Look at our forums now, it's the same 40 or 50 people who use them. The vast majority of LFS users do not use the forum. A minority of that vast majority probbably don't even know these pages exist.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is this : To a person who actually likes the game, you will buy it/play it for the game, and not for the forums. If you look at a forum for a particular game, let's take, for this example, WoW (I'm not a player), and went to the WoW forums and thought "Wow, these lot are a bunch of retards with no life", but didn't buy the monthly fee thing, then one would think to themselves "Maybe they don't like the game after all".

Because, let's face it. Posting on these forums costs nothing but a few minutes registration time. Playing the (full) game costs money, and that's where people start to get funny about it. Any excuse to move away from the fact that they don't want to pay for it. Even if that excuse is to blame the community.

I have played this game really long( demo for 5 years and S2 for almost a month, and on forum first day i gotted S2 (offtopic Cause of S2:ERS flaming demoers). I remember the time when i ran from school to home to play lfs.. It was heaven(and still is) everytime a new patch was made i was like :O wow.

People please think also the time between starting and now. Why there is almost zero Xrt race servers... ALL dorifto (btw i also drift and cruise). When racing, always the same 1 guy is 2000million laps faster, and others struggle.

I personally like lfs physics, when going to corner and hitting the pedal in metal the grin come´s to my face as the car starts to struggle agaist my will. ( MY OPINION=THATS WHAT I LIKE ON LFS. it´s not like other games it is unique) FWD,RWD,AWD 1WD(Uf1000 )
Try this if you get bored= make new sets just from thin air, throw the setup bars ,make something opposite to usual I NEED FASTEST SETUP
try to make FUNNIEST setup or MOST INTERESTING.
All the whining and saying lfs is going to die is making me so sad.
If you dont like the game don´t come to whine to forums, don´t make other people feel miserable ( i dont mean that forum should be all wohoo ect..) just think 10 times before you post and after you have thinked 10 times think other 10 times.

I personally think this game is always gonna be classic, even on year 2900 some ppl play this game no matter what (unless everybody die).

With all respect: Kerodal the fan of Live For Speed forever

Quote from Kerodal :

I have played this game really long( demo for 5 years and S2 for almost a month, and on forum frist day i gotted S2 (offtopic Cause of S2:ERS flaming demoers). I remember the time when i gotted from school to home to play lfs.. It was heaven(and still is) everytime a new patch was made i was like :O wow. People please think also the time between starting and now. Why there is almost zero Xrt race servers... ALL dorifto (i also drift and cruise) When racing always the same 1 guy is 2000million laps faster others struggle. I personally like lfs physics, when going to corner and hitting the pedal in metal the grin come´s to my face as the car starts to struggle agaist my will. ( MY OPINION=THATS WHAT I LIKE ON LFS. it´s not like other games it is unique) FWD,RWD,AWD 1WD(Uf1000 )
Try this if you get bored= make new sets just from thin air throw the setup bars make something opposite to usual I NEED FASTEST SETUP
try to make FUNNIEST setup or MOST INTERESTING.
All the whining and saying lfs is going to die is making me so sad.
I personally think this game is always gonna be classic even on year 2900 some ppl play this game no matter what (unless everybody die).
If you dont like the game don´t come to whine to forums, don´t make other people feel miserable ( i dont mean that forum should be all wohoo ect..) just think 10 times before you post and after you have thinked 10 times think other 10 times.
With all respect: Kerodal the fan of lfs forever

well said

Consider the fact that there's no subscription fee, that the content upgrades (S1->S2->S3) are optional, that InSim is fully available in the demo, that there's no time-limit on the demo, that old versions of LFS are not actively locked out from the master-server, and so on.

Clearly The LFS Team is not in it for the money. Something else is their driving force, and I know for a fact that it's their dedication to making the best online racing simulation. This means they will not always give the community what it wants, when it wants it.

This is why I'm not the least worried about the lack of content updates (nor any other kind of updates for that matter). They'll become available when the time is right. Until then I'll spend my time partaking in some league racing, organising IRL-meets, visiting my girlfriend in Norway, having a drink with my friends and other quality stuff.

Devs, take your time!
Community, don't panic (written in large, friendly letters).

Why isn't there room in any sim gamers' collection for both LFS and more mass-market games such as rFactor and the Simbin games (GTR series, RACE series)?

Both have pros and cons. Admittedly, I'm very new to LFS, and I love it because the physics and tire models simply BLOW AWAY anything in rFactor outside of the Historic GT & Touring mod with properly tuned RealFeel, and they're also better than GTR 2.

But the lack of additional mods, cars and tracks hurts LFS when compared to rFactor and GTR 2, no question.

Still, all of that variety comes with a trade-off in quality.

The quality of tracks and mods in rFactor and GTR 2 varies wildly. A few are terrific; many are awful. Some are developed by people with intimate knowledge of race car engineering and physics; some are developed by so-called "experts" who know little but how to pump random physics values into Notepad. The effectiveness of force feedback plugins such as RealFeel and Leo's FFB, which are almost mandatory since the default ISI FFB is pure crap, also varies wildly by mod.

Everything in LFS just oozes quality and consistency due to one development team that is painstaking in detail. Physics and tire models are unique yet consistent. Same with force feedback. Same with graphics quality.

If your heart is set on racing real historic or current race cars and real tracks, then rFactor and GTR 2 are your best options. But that option comes with the price of scatter-shot physics, and sub-par tire models and force feedback, depending on the mod.

If you can tolerate the limited numbers of cars and tracks for LFS, you're rewarded by superior physics and tire models. That's what matters the most to me, and that's why I'm having so much fun with LFS.

Again, I'm new to LFS, so the "new car smell" is still quite strong. But for me, realistic physics and tire models never get old, never go out of style.

Take care,
PK

I hope it gets a major update, Cars, tracks. We just need a teaser to hold us over or something because I've been playing the same version of lfs for a while now.

Quote from MiniVan :

I hope it gets a major update, Cars, tracks. We just need a teaser to hold us over or something because I've been playing the same version of lfs for a while now.

Seriously & with all due respect but if i can trust those numbers and im actually referring to your LFSW profile then im under the impression that you're certainly not in the position to make such a statement. In addition to that, perhaps you should check your priorities and do something else.

Not that im not aware about the situation but since we aint got any informations (or lets say very little) about the current state of development and its progression its only fair to say that assuming into any direction is bare nonesense and a waste of time. Just because there are no news doesn't inevitably means that there is or isn't anything going on behind the scenes .

Well. my point of view. if needed hehe

All greater updates usualy start as a bunch of patches in the testarea. havnt seen any, but there might be some before christmas.
So any BIG upgrade is hard for me to see this year. might be that improvment of cockpits in remaning cars and some bling bling to the grafics.
my guess is that the "BIG" update will be on hold until the summer of 2009..or later.

as all of u im only guessing. but with a few years of patchwhoring to back it up.( me and alot of more people here ofcourse)

/Mike

Quote from 510N3D :

Seriously & with all due respect but if i can trust those numbers and im actually referring to your LFSW profile then im under the impression that you're certainly not in the position to make such a statement. In addition to that, perhaps you should check your priorities and do something else.

Not that im not aware about the situation but since we aint got any informations (or lets say very little) about the current state of development and its progression its only fair to say that assuming into any direction is bare nonesense and a waste of time. Just because there are no news doesn't inevitably means that there is or isn't anything going on behind the scenes .

I'm married and have a child getting the fastest track times on lfs isn't my top thing right now

I'm guessing he also means under 10k miles in nearly 4 years. o_O;