Quote from Bladerunner :

...But obviously we are not allowed to defend ourselves or take steps to prevent it happening because that would be racist?

If you go off half-cock condemning a race/creed/ethnicity on the grounds that there was once a bunch of fanatics of that race/creed/ethnicity and might be more, then yes. You should instead go after the fanatics.

If I start shouting Owain Glyndŵr and waving a red and yellow banner with four lions on it, demanding Welsh independence, and planting bombs on tube trains until I get it then, apart from the fact I should be locked up for madness as Wales would go bust in a day, but aside from the obvious short comings - would that then justify sending tanks into Wales, patrolling the streets with SA-80 clad soldiers, imposing curfews and depriving the nation of clean water and power?

I'd argue that, aside from the clear mental instability of anyone thinking that Wales could support itself economically when all we've got to export is civil servants, the real target would be me and the Cymru Liberation Front...

Quote from Bladerunner :

...But obviously we are not allowed to defend ourselves or take steps to prevent it happening because that would be racist?

To bring it to terms that you might actually understand on an intelectual level:

Your means to "protect" you from "evil terrorists" is about as precise, useful, and more harsh, as not allowing all british people to go to football stadiums because british hooligans caused riots after a game.

Quote from durbster :

Terrorism's emotional impact far outweighs its threat, on a ratio that is bordering on ridiculous. You have such a minute chance of being involved in a terrorist incient that by rights it should barely be worthy of consideration.

Almost the same people died last year in "falls involving a chair" as died in the London bombings. It's not keeping me awake.

Ah...somebody else that has never driven a bus in London?? I have, and was driving a bus IN WEST LONDON ON 7th July 2005....How bloody close do you need it to be?
I now drive a bus to the two main British Airports..and you would not believe the security that I have to put up with..the average guy in the street may think its all blown over, but we have to be constantly on our guard, because you never know when and where it is going to happen again.
This is the aim of terrorist acts...to unsettle the infrastructure so that people ARE looking over their shoulders all the time.
Until the threat is removed, then they are winning.
Or are you all happy in the knowledge that it will never happen to you? The people on that bus thought they were safe as well.

Oh dear... maybe saying that I would like to see the threat of terrorism removed can be construed as a racist comment.

Quote from Bladerunner :

Oh dear... maybe saying that I would like to see the threat of terrorism removed can be construed as a racist comment.

What I see is a scared animal that has been backed into a corner by a loud noise and is scratching and lashing out at anything that moves in the darkness.

Do you honestly believe that hunting down and repatriating all Muslims to their various countries of origin would effectively tackle fundamentalist terrorism?

I suggest it would rock the boat even further, push more people into the fundamentalist catch net, and place us in greater risk of terror attack.

Ever since I was tiny Britain has been the target of terror attacks. The opposition has changed, now they're neatly identifyable by skin colour, turban, robes, and a Koran in their back pocket of course - whereas before they where white Irish and really hard to tell apart, gosh that was difficult, especially as some Irish people didnt want to blow us up and where actually on our side. Gee, I wonder if there could ever be moderate Muslims too.

Well, honestly, you can't blame all of the muslims for your paranoia, can you? Also, what's so different from the irish catholics? they bombed you too, didn't they? So best throw all of them out too, bloody bastards...

You base your racism on irrational fear. It's far more likely for you to be killed in a traffic accident. So why not ban cars?

Quote from gezmoor :

Putting words in to his mouth rather aren't you?

I don't agree with a lot of what andy has said but I have to say that being worried about the fact that there are sections of the muslim community in this country that would like to see sharia law invoked and that the UK should be turned in to an undemocratic Islamic Theocracy is perfectly reasonable to my mind.

and worried about the fact there are small sections of the Muslim faith in this country which think it perfectly alright to blow themselves up taking as many people with them as possible in the name of some twisted version of their religion......

Quote from Becky Rose :

If you go off half-cock condemning a race/creed/ethnicity on the grounds that there was once a bunch of fanatics of that race/creed/ethnicity and might be more, then yes. You should instead go after the fanatics.

er, sorry Becky, can you show me WHERE I condemned the whole Islamic faith for the acts of some hard-line fanatics?

I know that moderate Muslims condemn these fanatics as much as I do, and would like to be able to live their lives without fear of getting 20kg of Chapatti flour and Hydrogen Peroxide going off in the seat next to them.
I know also that these fanatics were British born and bred, and held British passports...but WHO indoctrinated them to the point that they were willing to blow themselves into tiny little pieces?
Were the Mullahs who recruited them born and bred over here as well? Did THEY get blown up?? No...they were nice and safe at home with a big grin on their faces. What happens when they catch one of these mad Mullahs that preach Jihad? They give them a small fortune of taxpayers money...they cant send them back to where they came from because it breaches their human rights!!!
It's about time people realised that; as Becky said, we are at war, and if we must accept the occasional bomb going off, then we must also have the right to fight back.

Quote from ColeusRattus :

Well, honestly, you can't blame all of the muslims for your paranoia, can you? Also, what's so different from the irish catholics? they bombed you too, didn't they? So best throw all of them out too, bloody bastards...

I dont blame ALL the Muslims, and rational caution is not paranoia.

Quote from ColeusRattus :

You base your racism on irrational fear. It's far more likely for you to be killed in a traffic accident. So why not ban cars?

Please come back and argue when you have at least a small idea of what you are talking about.

Quote from Bladerunner :

...I now drive a bus to the two main British Airports..and you would not believe the security that I have to put up with..the average guy in the street may think its all blown over, but we have to be constantly on our guard, because you never know when and where it is going to happen again...

Exactly. As I said:

Quote :

Terrorism's emotional impact far outweighs its threat

If you drive a bus then, logically speaking, you're far more likely to be killed or injured in an RTA or something. In fact, you're no less likely to be injured tripping on the step getting off the bus.

But because terrorism targets some deep, primal fear, it has more impact on you. That's why it's such an effective weapon. In your position, I'd be feeling exactly the same too.

Quote from Bladerunner :

Or are you all happy in the knowledge that it will never happen to you? The people on that bus thought they were safe as well.

Yep, I'm pretty content that it won't happen to me. It might, but so might a billion other things. Some people in the world have to deal with death every single day so all I can do is count myself lucky that I'm not in their position.

Quote from Bladerunner :

Oh dear... maybe saying that I would like to see the threat of terrorism removed can be construed as a racist comment.

Terrorism has been around as long as there has been governments. It isn't going anywhere. The United States itself started off with terrorist acts against London (like when they came to burn down a load of ships - but forgot to bring some matches )

The best we mortals can do is hope we don't get another Tony Blair pushing us closer to the lions mouth.

Quote :

er, sorry Becky, can you show me WHERE I condemned the whole Islamic faith for the acts of some hard-line fanatics?

Actually I cant be arsed to read back. Why are we arguing again?

My position is this: I'm against the BNP; i'm against the Muslim Council of Great Britain; i'm against the starting of illegal wars; i'm against the concept of nations; i'm against terrorism but accept it is an act of war; i'm against fundamentalism; i'm against taking action against the wrong target.

Put another way I am against all forms of extremism. I'm a liberal, and I believe in peace.

I'm going to bow out and get some work done, i'll leave you with this Aisling I wrote (that is to say I wrote it in English because my Gaelic is worse than my Welsh, and it's not really anti-English enough to be a proper Aisling, and I always did hate the last line) whilst the peace process was getting under way in Ireland.


I dont see the current situation much differently except that it is not as personalised for me. I just wish we could all get along, we're all people. Let the leaders worry about their power plays and saluting flags - i'm lower / middle class and I dont fight for my country, I fight for humanity.

Quote from ColeusRattus :

You base your racism on irrational fear. It's far more likely for you to be killed in a traffic accident. So why not ban cars?

I take it you never heard of the Crusades? Terrorism/racism waaaaaaay before the advent of cars.....

Quote from Becky Rose :

I dont see the current situation much differently except that it is not as personalised for me. I just wish we could all get along, we're all people. Let the leaders worry about their power plays and saluting flags - i'm lower / middle class and I dont fight for my country, I fight for humanity.

A famous General once summed it up:

Quote from Bladerunner :

A famous General once summed it up:

So what is your position?

Quote from Bladerunner :

Unless you live and work in London and use public transport....



forgotten 7/7/2005 already Sam?

As I said, not a serious threat compared with our serious military incursions and support of foreign occupations in Iraq and Palestine.

Quote from mookie427 :

and worried about the fact there are small sections of the Muslim faith in this country which think it perfectly alright to blow themselves up taking as many people with them as possible in the name of some twisted version of their religion......

I want to clarify something here.. in the last 50 years, Britain has seen literally hundreds of acts of terrorism by the IRA and its factions, defended against at a net cost of several billion quid over the years. Add to that the billions of quid we spent on a defence infrastructure to fend against "the reds"..

And yet today the biggest influx of foreign nationals into the UK are from white former USSR, and from the Republic of Ireland.

Yet the BNP don't even list these countries as ones that they want to stop immigration from. The two nations who remotely, conceivably have historically posed a threat to national security. But they're "white" nations, according to the BNP, and so they're not a threat to Britain.

BNP is unadulterated racism, packaged as politics, delivered via rhetoric and soaked up by the simple and the paranoid.

Quote from mookie427 :

I take it you never heard of the Crusades? Terrorism/racism waaaaaaay before the advent of cars.....

You're getting at what? Of course I know about the crusades. If you think that the wave of islamic terrorism is a centuries late retaliation for that, you'll find that you're quite wrong.

My point was that cars are way more dangerous than terrorists, yet some people, like bladerunner get paranoic when on the bus rather than when on the roads. It'*s just that this fear of terrorism is way out of proportion, and as I see it, it's just a button extremists push to gain support.

Quote from mookie427 :

I take it you never heard of the Crusades? Terrorism/racism waaaaaaay before the advent of cars.....

Did you know that (childish maybe) the muslims were first? When they expanded their empire, Europe reacted with the barbarian crusades. Ofcourse 'our' crusades weren't anything to be proud of, but we weren't the only nor the first. Also, most Arabs still see Spain as their muslim territory.

Quote from SamH :

I want to clarify something here.. in the last 50 years, Britain has seen literally hundreds of acts of terrorism by the IRA and its factions, defended against at a net cost of several billion quid over the years. Add to that the billions of quid we spent on a defence infrastructure to fend against "the reds"..

And yet today the biggest influx of foreign nationals into the UK are from white former USSR, and from the Republic of Ireland.

Yet the BNP don't even list these countries as ones that they want to stop immigration from. The two nations who remotely, conceivably have historically posed a threat to national security. But they're "white" nations, according to the BNP, and so they're not a threat to Britain.

BNP is unadulterated racism, packaged as politics, delivered via rhetoric and soaked up by the simple and the paranoid.

Classic political rhetoric. You haven't addressed my statement in the slightest, you have skirted round the issue talking about the percievable threats from 'white' countries. I never mentioned the BNP or 'white' threats yet you insist on mentioning them. I was simply stating we have a right to be wary of a religion that has been twisted so far from what it was originally intended to mean by certain imams in certain mosques that it drives young men/women to blow themselves up amidst crowds of people in the belief it will lead them to paradise filled with 72 virgins.

I can totally see where Bladerunner is coming from. Everyone who died that day in July 3 years ago (and 9/11, and Lockerbie, etc etc) all woke up on a normal day and never knew they were not going to survive

Quote from mookie427 :

Classic political rhetoric.

Okay, you obviously don't know what political rhetoric is then, because what I posted was anything but political rhetoric.

Quote from mookie427 :

You haven't addressed my statement in the slightest, you have skirted round the issue talking about the percievable threats from 'white' countries. I never mentioned the BNP or 'white' threats yet you insist on mentioning them. I was simply stating we have a right to be wary of a religion that has been twisted so far from what it was originally intended to mean by certain imams in certain mosques that it drives young men/women to blow themselves up amidst crowds of people in the belief it will lead them to paradise filled with 72 virgins.

My point, lost on you, is that extremism and radicalisation is invariably satisfactorily rationalised to its followers. It's not by any measure limited to "persons of colour". Perpetrators of extremism are what we need to be wary of, and that means extremism in/of any colour. Why can't I mention the BNP all of a sudden? Thread title, y0.

If you still believe that the suicide bombers are expecting to get with 72 virgins, you're beyond blinkered. Any muslim, radical or otherwise, would easily point out that the 9/11 bombers blew any chance of booking the 72-virgin package the night before they caught their planes when they went on their piss-up on the town. You obviously don't know nearly as much about "the enemy" and what drives it as you think you do.

This might be my own naivity of Islaam, but isnt alchohol only banned on "holy soil" ? That's why so many wealthy people in Arabic countries own boats, usually referred to as "Gin Palaces".

Quote from Becky Rose :

This might be my own naivity of Islaam, but isnt alchohol only banned on "holy soil" ? That's why so many wealthy people in Arabic countries own boats, usually referred to as "Gin Palaces".

Nope, alcohol in any form is prohibited in Islam.

Quote from SamH :

Nope, alcohol in any form is prohibited in Islam.

Ah so the sheiks just don't see how the rule applies to them, got it

Sam, I really think that this thread should be locked and buried. It's not like the discussion will lead to anything, so let's end it before you need to hand out infractions.

If this thread is not to be locked, then I might add a tad.

Why does everyone and his mum think that islam is "evil"? In all honesty, from what I know, it's nowhere worse than our own bible. Just imagine what our society would look like if we lived by it to the letter.

Also, I have yet to meet a muslim who agrees with those few extremists, while there are more than enough white people out there, who quite loudly support extremist, and thus in my eyes outright stupid views. Even in here.

Heck, I even now and elderly Egyptian who came to Austria thirty years ago. He still isn't able to talk german without an accent, but so what? I once caught him eating pork at a barbeque, and here's what he told me: "Well, the pig is an unpure animal in our religion, and thus we cannot eat it. But the Qu'ran tells us that we must do everything to keep ourselves alive, even if it means eating pork. And I am short of starving!" As you can see, much like Christianity, Islam also has different approaches from fundamentalism up to a very laid back attitude.

Also, on a sidenote, limiting the terrorism to religious motifs isn't really a way to solve the problem. As with so much else in life, the terrorism we see today has numreous reasons, from which religion is but one.

When you talk about topics like this the discussion gets heated every now and then, but if you let it run it's course people will start to talk politely and take in other peoples views and opinions. If you lock it before people can say what they want to say, then you just cause more trouble in the long term. I welcome this thread being kept open for so long, and hopefully it will be left open until it naturally drops off the first page and people lose interest.

Quote from ATC Quicksilver :

You seem to have ignored the torrent of racial abuse that man hurled at the family for months on end. If it was the other way round the attack would have been racially motivated and done on purpose, the man was racist scum and felt the consequences of making someone elses life unbearable. You can't compare an act of anger and despiration to a sadistic racially motivated murder just because both cases didn't get much time on the news.

If I had my conservative hat on I would have given Habib a medal for ridding the world of a vile and despicable excuse for a human being, but being a liberal I can't agree with his actions, and I believe the victim was racist because of a mental illness, which is how I view all racists, mentally ill.

If I may just pick you up on that point, murder is not a "consequence", and no-one has the power to murder someone because they feel hard done by. No-one deserves to be killed, in a 3 vs 1 situation because they insulted someone, that's nothing but an excuse, and should have served life.

I killed my ex girlfreind because she broke my heart. What happens? I'd get life or something. Some middle eastern bloke kills someone "oh my dear please it was racist yes", and gets, basically, a slap on the wrist. Not right in my books, fair treatment, and equallity under the law.

That group of idiots at school that went round verbally abusing everyone at school, that tosser in the white van that pulled out on me today, the shop-keeper for underchanging me. Do they all deserve to die, to be murdered in cold blood? To have their life taken from them because of some things they've done/said to upset me/anger me? The answer to that is, of course, no.