Quote from nisskid :

a decent example of some fast drifting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHOkR8vrP94

I am sorry, but in this video, Tsuchiya does mostly slow show drifts. Just look at his exit speeds in the first part (downhill), especially after the right hander 180° corners. This is clearly show, and I have to say that I've seen Tsuchiya do better (Sorry I saw that the video showed only the 2nd part - Uphill, but this is even slower...)

As opposed, this video shows us a better Tsuchiya : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v ... UxxpU&feature=related

Especially at the marks 2:15, ~2:30, 3:23, he does drifts with a very low slip angle (around 3-4°), which are clearly fast (just check the exit speed and the speed carried through the corner). However, at ~3:30, he slides by mistake, and we can clearly note a parallel between the exits you showed in your video (only 2 wheels are sliding : the rear ones).

So to clarify again : even if we know that what you mean by drift is the 4-wheel drift (4WDr), which is a way to use the maximum slip angles of the car, please use another term (sliding, 4WDr, etc), because people will associate "drift" to the motorsport. Once again, they may be wrong, but it is the common sense it has now.

In that case, show drifting will always be slower than proper racing (and of course slower than 4WDr). If you look at the final scene of F&F Tokyo Drift (the "race" on the mountain), you can't do anything but laugh, since the way they drive is clearly show oriented, while any UF1 hotlapper in LFS would beat the crap out of them.

@Nightshift : Countersteering during the entry phase usually mean that you steered too much and you have to stabilize your car, so this might have been a bit too optimistic Usually, during a 4WDr, you don't need to countersteer during the entry phase, because you use that oversteer to build up angle. And during the exit phase, you don't really "need" to countersteer, because as you apply throttle, you'll understeer (loss of front traction) already enough, so countersteering too much will make you end up with even more unwanted understeer

@tristan : gosh, that guy has clear problems to understand what we say, doesn't he ?

it is almost December 2nd, 2008, and the drift vs grip debate still continues. Looks like it will till the end of time...

Quote from Zen321 :

I am sorry, but in this video, Tsuchiya does mostly slow show drifts. Just look at his exit speeds in the first part (downhill), especially after the right hander 180° corners. This is clearly show, and I have to say that I've seen Tsuchiya do better (Sorry I saw that the video showed only the 2nd part - Uphill, but this is even slower...)

As opposed, this video shows us a better Tsuchiya : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v ... UxxpU&feature=related

Especially at the marks 2:15, ~2:30, 3:23, he does drifts with a very low slip angle (around 3-4°), which are clearly fast (just check the exit speed and the speed carried through the corner). However, at ~3:30, he slides by mistake, and we can clearly note a parallel between the exits you showed in your video (only 2 wheels are sliding : the rear ones).
.

as i said there was quite a few mistakes, but i think you missed the point, i was trying to demonstrate the origins of drift and how they originally took on quite a fast form, one of keiichi's biggest errors there was line which was killing his speed, but as far as car balance there were only a few errors there in his drift which caused dramatic speed loss.

Quote from Takumi_lfs :

No, not really. Racing asks for more practice than drifting. You have to know your racing line braking points and always hit the apex. In drifting you don't have these kinds of points, its just slide the car through the corner.

wow you have no idea about competition drift do you?

if you ever sit down in a drivers briefing at drift you get told that one of the most important elements to drift is line, most of the time it is conventional apex's sometimes its things like wall riding and specialised clipping points.

drift is a lot more complex than a lot of people give it credit for, that is why i never participate in the drift competitions on here because they are an absolute joke judging wise, mostly because of the naive attitude like that.

depending on the competiton the area of the world, generally the judging is based on precision, meaning they are looking for line and proximity foremost while maintaining good angle, and obviously subsequently speed. smoke and noise are only really relavent to the crowd, and what motorsport isnt like that?

Quote from Shotglass :

oh like in your avatar?

yes, that is me "show" drifting. not sure i get your point :S

Quote from Shotglass :

he has with embarrasing results that i sadly havent fully recorded in mprs

lol i meant in real life, anyone can chuck a car sideways in a game, but id like to see him throw a real car at a wall at 150k's+ timing it correctly with the corner 100metre's+ ahead so not to go into a sandtrap sideways and roll the car and still show such disrespect to the sport.

this entry was at around 150ks:
http://www.speedshots.com.au/g ... 1/2008_da_r5_NJW_1870.jpg

Quote from Shotglass :

no thats driving like a twat down public roads while losing a lot of exit speed thanks to facing the wrong direction

besides those few times he overotated a bit, his car was pointing straight towards the exit on the exit, most of the time he grips up a bit before the exit anyway.

I dont agree with you takumi.
Go try too drift a decent lap on fe gold rev or city tracks with good angle without spining out,you think drifting is really easy but it isnt.
And i dont say racing is easy.

Aro

Quote from ArOuTiN :

I dont agree with you takumi.
Go try too drift a decent lap on fe gold rev or city tracks with good angle without spining out,you think drifting is really easy but it isnt.
And i dont say racing is easy.

Aro

once again, anyone can throw a car sideways and get a lot of angle, just like anyone can race around a track, what makes a good drifter are more technical elements that arent as visable to most people.

I think the problem many people in here, including myself, have with drifting is that it's basically a "sport" in which only show-offs and chavs participate. It's basically a gathering of peacocks (witht he amphasis on the latter part of the word) seeing who has the most colourful peacock's fan.
Now that in itself isn't that bad actually, but most of those participating in such drift events want people who prefer more serious motorsports to acknowledge drifting as a racing technique equal or even faster than "grip-racing" (possibly because the've watched Intial D to often...), and start getting very defensive about their opinion once others point out that it isn't.
Also, having had numreous threads like this, which all turned out the same don't help make people more acceptable of drifitng either.

Quote from ColeusRattus :

I think the problem many people in here, including myself, have with drifting is that it's basically a "sport" in which only show-offs and chavs participate. It's basically a gathering of peacocks (witht he amphasis on the latter part of the word) seeing who has the most colourful peacock's fan.

racing has just as many arrogant arseholes who are just in the sport to feed the ego, wait sorry what am i saying, racing has MUCH more people like that lol

drifting is much more relaxed, much more pure sport as it is atm (although it is going the way of racing), most people turn up to drift days are mates, there as much to have a chat as they are to get out on the track and have some fun, they exchange paint or destroy the other guys panel and 90% of the time they will have a laugh about it over beers the same night. everyone has an ego, and yes showmanship does play a big role in drift, just like any other sport, ever seen a victory burnout in a race car?

in some ways it is unfortunate that drift is getting bigger, money, ego and sponsors start to take priority, just like any sport that reaches this point i guess.

Quote from ColeusRattus :

but most of those participating in such drift events want people who prefer more serious motorsports to acknowledge drifting as a racing technique equal or even faster than "grip-racing" (possibly because the've watched Intial D to often...), and start getting very defensive about their opinion once others point out that it isn't.
Also, having had numreous threads like this,

lol no, just no.

people that drift are under no illusions that drifting is faster or is a better technique for racing, drift is about displaying car control and showmanship, the ironic part is it seems racers are the ones that seem to be under the illusion that what they are doing is anything more than going around a circuit quickly.

don't let the 14yo drifters on a video game influence your view on real drifters, have you ever been to a drift meet and met the drivers?

Quote from tristancliffe :

And that is why drifters like locked diffs - lots of understeer. It seems backwards doesn't it - someone who wants to spend time in oversteer setting the car up for understeer! But that is what they seem to do.

I thought you would know that. :o

An understeery setup is less likely to "snap" on you mid-drift.

I won't bother explaining the reasons why, you are smart enough to know.

By "snap" I mean the front wheels suddenly gaining lots of grip mid-drift and throwing your car straight so fast you can't catch it.

Quote from N1PPER :

I thought you would know that. :o

An understeery setup is less likely to "snap" on you mid-drift.

I won't bother explaining the reasons why, you are smart enough to know.

By "snap" I mean the front wheels suddenly gaining lots of grip mid-drift and throwing your car straight so fast you can't catch it.

sorry but you couldn't really be further from the truth, mid-drift the rear wheels are spinning, understeer from a locked diff is only caused when the tyres are still holding traction (entry).

also the "snap" you talk about is managed by driving properly and having a half decent setup, a proper setup will allow you to induce drift easily without having uncontrolable oversteer mid corner and exit.

Wow, attacked within minutes... Kinda expected it though.

Great atmosphere here.

Say a word wrong and forever be condemned to being seen as an idiot I guess.

I suppose I should have mentioned a couple of crucial (yet so obvious) factors. Countersteer is much more forgiving on an understeery setup, as the front wheels will not grip instantly, giving the driver some time to realise what is happening underneath him. It's a good place to start drifting also, as it is more forgiving and teaches the driver that you need to really throw it hard to initiate a drift.

Have you tried drifting a setup that is set to max oversteer?

Quote from N1PPER :

Wow, attacked within minutes... Kinda expected it though.

Great atmosphere here.

Say a word wrong and forever be condemned to being seen as an idiot I guess.

I suppose I should have mentioned a couple of crucial (yet so obvious) factors. Countersteer is much more forgiving on an understeery setup, as the front wheels will not grip instantly, giving the driver some time to realise what is happening underneath him. It's a good place to start drifting also, as it is more forgiving and teaches the driver that you need to really throw it hard to initiate a drift.

Have you tried drifting a setup that is set to max oversteer?

i dont see where he attacked you or called you a idiot on his last post, also the "snap" is from the rear wheels griping up really fast and sending you the way your front wheels are facing wich is really hard to recover from but with a good setup this shouldnt happen anyway

Quote from N1PPER :

Wow, attacked within minutes... Kinda expected it though.

Great atmosphere here.

Say a word wrong and forever be condemned to being seen as an idiot I guess.

I suppose I should have mentioned a couple of crucial (yet so obvious) factors. Countersteer is much more forgiving on an understeery setup, as the front wheels will not grip instantly, giving the driver some time to realise what is happening underneath him. It's a good place to start drifting also, as it is more forgiving and teaches the driver that you need to really throw it hard to initiate a drift.

Have you tried drifting a setup that is set to max oversteer?

no attacking here, i beleive only tristan had resorted to petty insults so far.

as far as your idea of a setup, i guess some of it comes down to personal preference, but know that your idea of a setup is not shared by many if any professional drifters.

understeer is generally something not preferential, you want to cancel it out as much as possible, if you are having a issue with countersteering try playing around with camber and toe adjustments, as well as damper adjustment if you're having trouble with the transition.

Quote from masternick :

i dont see where he attacked you or called you a idiot on his last post, also the "snap" is from the rear wheels griping up really fast and sending you the way your front wheels are facing wich is really hard to recover from but with a good setup this shouldnt happen anyway

yeh i agree, the snapping mid-drift shouldnt really be happening on a decent setup.

Cue another petty insult about multi-quotes and double/triple posts... Why not edit your posts to combine multiple thoughts. And read about how to use Multi-quote.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTz0fxwYP1o

There is another drift vs grip vid where the drifter won.

I think this discussion has pretty much reached its end. It has already been decided that in some cases, drift is faster and in others "grip" is faster. When done right they are are both fast and both fun. Sadly we have drivers like tristan who are an ignorant biased arse that can only see their way and their own opinion. Yes you are entitled to your opinion, but really your acting the same way a racist would. Your way is better and everyone else sucks and looks "silly". And when you said drifting wastes resources and dosent solve anything, what exactly does racing solve? And do you not change tires and use fuel just like every other motorsport?

That against the Ai, though - I'm fairly sure I could "speeddrift" faster than the Ai...

why not settle it once and for all in live for speed?

Quote from f4sttr@ck :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTz0fxwYP1o

There is another drift vs grip vid where the drifter won.

Anyone notice the lap time? Looks like 1:44.something... IIRC my standing start laps on the old BL1r were in the vicinity of 1:35 or 1:36 with the XRT. And I'm slow.

Quote from March Hare :

Anyone notice the lap time? Looks like 1:44.something... IIRC my standing start laps on the old BL1r were in the vicinity of 1:35 or 1:36 with the XRT. And I'm slow.

yeh that guys line and angle was all over the place, makes you wonder what exactly was wrong with the other car.

No comments about BL1, T1? Is that drifting or "grip"?

Quote from f4sttr@ck :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTz0fxwYP1o

There is another drift vs grip vid where the drifter won.

I think this discussion has pretty much reached its end. It has already been decided that in some cases, drift is faster and in others "grip" is faster. When done right they are are both fast and both fun. Sadly we have drivers like tristan who are an ignorant biased arse that can only see their way and their own opinion. Yes you are entitled to your opinion, but really your acting the same way a racist would. Your way is better and everyone else sucks and looks "silly". And when you said drifting wastes resources and dosent solve anything, what exactly does racing solve? And do you not change tires and use fuel just like every other motorsport?

Comon man, i can win AI with my eyes closed.
That video proves nothing.
I cant understand why you guys want to prove this thing... no way it will be faster in a race. Maybe one corner or two in a track, and that's moderate sliding, not crazy big angle drifting.
If you are exiting corner with back end sliding then you are losing speed. Period

edit: this doesn't mean you cant have fun drifting, drift all you want. I don't care. I like sliding in corners but going fast. Everyone have its own taste.

Quote from nisskid :

besides those few times he overotated a bit, his car was pointing straight towards the exit on the exit, most of the time he grips up a bit before the exit anyway.

most of the time he wasnt drifting at all
except for those bits where he lost lots of speed his wheel was turned into the corner all the time

What i find strange is that people seem to hate repeat topics (such as drift vs grip) yet they do so well and people get so involved.

Its upto 6 pages so far, and i've found them to be an awesome read!

My opinion on the whole drift vs grip is that it doesn't really matter which you do.

One person COULD be faster at drift than racing and pull a better lap time,

or Vice versa

But the real point is to which one you enjoy more, no one can tell you otherwise.

Speed isn't always everything, play to have fun