Drifting, or bringing the rear around is faster in just ONE scenario: you have so much understeer you'd need a crawling speed or even a three-point turn to get around the corner... In this case, you might reconsider your setup (exceptions prove the rule)...

Quote from nisskid :

as i said there was quite a few mistakes, but i think you missed the point, i was trying to demonstrate the origins of drift and how they originally took on quite a fast form, one of keiichi's biggest errors there was line which was killing his speed, but as far as car balance there were only a few errors there in his drift which caused dramatic speed loss.

Wrong.

His dramatic speed loss is not due to his line, which are okay, but it is due to the difference in slip angles between front wheels and rear wheels.

Look at how much he needs to countersteer to keep the full throttle to prevent spinning (the rear wheels spin really hard on the downhill part).
As I said, Tsuchiya made Pluspy and Pluspy II as show drift (holding the drift longer than what is optimal, and with a too high angle and difference of angle between the frnt and the rear wheels). As I said, he intentionally made this video for fun show drift, because he is more skilled than that.

So this video has got nothing to do with the origins of drift. People say that drift (with your meaning : a way to clear corners faster) was born in the mountain of Japan, which is wrong again : it was popularized in the street culture, because of the nature of the track (low grip, tight corners and winding path where entry speed matters slightly more than exit speed).
However, it existed back in the 60's, especially on the Porsches (mid-ship, so exit oversteer was not really avoidable at that time, even with the best setups), would it be for track or asphalt rallye racing.

We agree that sliding was at first a way to be fast, and bbman explained also why. We also agree that drift now is a motorsport based on show. And we agree also that sliding is not fast in every situation : since it is more demanding on the tires, people would actually do it on short runs, and only on some corners where the gain of being in the slip-zone is much more important that having your 4 wheels gripping on the road. We finally agree that oversteer slide (from the wheel POV : front grip, rear no grip) at the exits will always be slower than having your rearies grip the road (on a RWD).

Quote from Zen321 :

Wrong.

His dramatic speed loss is not due to his line, which are okay, but it is due to the difference in slip angles between front wheels and rear wheels.

Look at how much he needs to countersteer to keep the full throttle to prevent spinning (the rear wheels spin really hard on the downhill part).
As I said, Tsuchiya made Pluspy and Pluspy II as show drift (holding the drift longer than what is optimal, and with a too high angle and difference of angle between the frnt and the rear wheels). As I said, he intentionally made this video for fun show drift, because he is more skilled than that.

So this video has got nothing to do with the origins of drift. People say that drift (with your meaning : a way to clear corners faster) was born in the mountain of Japan, which is wrong again : it was popularized in the street culture, because of the nature of the track (low grip, tight corners and winding path where entry speed matters slightly more than exit speed).
However, it existed back in the 60's, especially on the Porsches (mid-ship, so exit oversteer was not really avoidable at that time, even with the best setups), would it be for track or asphalt rallye racing.

We agree that sliding was at first a way to be fast, and bbman explained also why. We also agree that drift now is a motorsport based on show. And we agree also that sliding is not fast in every situation : since it is more demanding on the tires, people would actually do it on short runs, and only on some corners where the gain of being in the slip-zone is much more important that having your 4 wheels gripping on the road. We finally agree that oversteer slide (from the wheel POV : front grip, rear no grip) at the exits will always be slower than having your rearies grip the road (on a RWD).

i actually mentioned that he adopted the style from on track racing, i was talking about the origins of where it made the transition from a race technique on the track to "drifting". if that makes sense (hard to word)

i think a few good drifts int hat vid to look at are 3:18, probably not overly effective on such a long corner, not to mention a bit too much angle on the exit, but a good example none the less of angle control mid corner. 1:40 looks very promising before they cut, 2:40 isnt too bad either. there are tonnes of corners where he doesnt drift and he suffers from both mid corner understeer or oversteer on the exit which absolutely kill his speed. when he pulls off a decent drift the speed is maintained really well throughout the corner.

let's remember though simply having oversteer on the exit of the corner is not drift, in fact it's the opposite really of what a fast drift is aiming at, those instances where he has oversteer on the exit are usually as a result of maintaining traction mid corner.

a fast drift is all mid corner with as little entry drift as you can manage, this is because this is where the rears are doing the least work, when you start exiting the corner and working the rear tyres you want to be straight again with full traction on the rears.

like i said it's a shame the style shown in the vid wasnt continued and refined, as obviously it is very rough, but i think it has massive potential, especially for the low powered RWD cars through tight courses where they have sharper corners and less room to apex the corner.

the main issue with keiichi's drifting in that vid was anything resembling a half effective drift was few and far between.

Quote from ColeusRattus :

why not settle it once and for all in live for speed?

Or even against a WR time for a baseline comparison would be nice:icon23:

Haha even better idea someone start a Drift vs Race sever.......

Quote from nisskid :

let's remember though simply having oversteer on the exit of the corner is not drift, in fact it's the opposite really of what a fast drift is aiming at, those instances where he has oversteer on the exit are usually as a result of maintaining traction mid corner.

a fast drift is all mid corner with as little entry drift as you can manage, this is because this is where the rears are doing the least work, when you start exiting the corner and working the rear tyres you want to be straight again with full traction on the rears.

like i said it's a shame the style shown in the vid wasnt continued and refined, as obviously it is very rough, but i think it has massive potential, especially for the low powered RWD cars through tight courses where they have sharper corners and less room to apex the corner.

I think you have a wrong idea of cornering. I am by now way condescendent or harsh, and I don't mean to be that way.
You have to think about transients. Let's take the different transients of cornering :
*) Increasing brakes while increasing turn in | Understeer
1) Decreasing brakes/throttle while increasing turn in | Oversteer
2) 0 foot input while increasing turn in | Neutral
3) Increasing throttle while decreasing turn in | Understeer

Those are the four basics effects of cornering with a FR car. (what the car will tend to do on it's own). So, what you call mid-corner, would be the moment where the only inputs are the steering ones, because it occurs between the moment of right before you hit the apex and right after hitting it?
If it is the case, then you are wrong to assume the most important phase of a fast drift occurs here. There are actually two types of fast drifts (low angle - based on the tires' slip angle - lots of grip even if sliding - constant "relative angle" with the racing line, and progressive angle with the exit direction - 4 wheels are sliding) :

A) One which is very entry-oriented, in which you enter the corner with a tad more speed than you would do if you kept your tires sticking to the road. During transient 1, you get your tire to the angle you like. If you catch too much angle, and think that it could jeopardize your balance when you'll apply the throttle, then you use very briefly transient * to stabilize the angle. During transient 2, your car should keep the same momentum, and the same "relative angle". During transient 3, your car will still slide a bit, and regain the grip roughly around halfway between the apex and the exit point.
This is done mainly in tight corners, where sliding can help carrying the momentum, on low powered and light cars. The angles can be "quite high" here, depending on the nature of the corner, its line, whether it is uphill or downhill, etc.
B) One which is more exit-oriented than A. In transient one, you launch your car so that it will have a lower angle than in A. In transient two, you do nothing, and by the time you have reached the apex, you'll start regaining grip, and exit in transient 3 as a normal exit. This is better for either fast corners, or heavy cars, in order to prevent the inertia to create unwanted extra-understeer.

So basically, mid-corner should only be a non-important, transition point. Why ? Because if you try to kepe the traction in transient 1, then slide in transient two, and keep the traction in transient 3, you'll just break the momentum of the car. Breaking momentum = Slower.

I have to say that the transient I said above are the general behavior of a FR car regarding the mass transfers. A MR or RR car would have entry understeer (too much weight at the rear) and exit oversteer (the rear weighs too much for the tires to handle, and it is easy to break it free).
A slide is useful only if your setup behaves in order to increase the effects of the mass transfers.
This is why we can't say that a slide if always faster or always slower than not sliding. It depends on how the driver drives and how the car is set up. If it is set up for stability, then sticking to the road would be faster (if one of the ends break free, then you'll understeer really bad). If your car is set up to use the mass transfers as a way to increase it's cornering power (low front damping/high rear damping for FR cars | high front damping/compression-rebound rear damping quasi equal for a MR-RR car), then you might consider sliding.

But, stop the OT : please precise what you call mid-corner. Does it matches the definition it gave above? Otherwise, please explain

Quote from Zen321 :

I think you have a wrong idea of cornering. I am by now way condescendent or harsh, and I don't mean to be that way.
You have to think about transients. Let's take the different transients of cornering :
*) Increasing brakes while increasing turn in | Understeer
1) Decreasing brakes/throttle while increasing turn in | Oversteer
2) 0 foot input while increasing turn in | Neutral
3) Increasing throttle while decreasing turn in | Understeer

Those are the four basics effects of cornering with a FR car. (what the car will tend to do on it's own). So, what you call mid-corner, would be the moment where the only inputs are the steering ones, because it occurs between the moment of right before you hit the apex and right after hitting it?
If it is the case, then you are wrong to assume the most important phase of a fast drift occurs here. There are actually two types of fast drifts (low angle - based on the tires' slip angle - lots of grip even if sliding - constant "relative angle" with the racing line, and progressive angle with the exit direction - 4 wheels are sliding) :

A) One which is very entry-oriented, in which you enter the corner with a tad more speed than you would do if you kept your tires sticking to the road. During transient 1, you get your tire to the angle you like. If you catch too much angle, and think that it could jeopardize your balance when you'll apply the throttle, then you use very briefly transient * to stabilize the angle. During transient 2, your car should keep the same momentum, and the same "relative angle". During transient 3, your car will still slide a bit, and regain the grip roughly around halfway between the apex and the exit point.
This is done mainly in tight corners, where sliding can help carrying the momentum, on low powered and light cars. The angles can be "quite high" here, depending on the nature of the corner, its line, whether it is uphill or downhill, etc.
B) One which is more exit-oriented than A. In transient one, you launch your car so that it will have a lower angle than in A. In transient two, you do nothing, and by the time you have reached the apex, you'll start regaining grip, and exit in transient 3 as a normal exit. This is better for either fast corners, or heavy cars, in order to prevent the inertia to create unwanted extra-understeer.

So basically, mid-corner should only be a non-important, transition point. Why ? Because if you try to kepe the traction in transient 1, then slide in transient two, and keep the traction in transient 3, you'll just break the momentum of the car. Breaking momentum = Slower.

I have to say that the transient I said above are the general behavior of a FR car regarding the mass transfers. A MR or RR car would have entry understeer (too much weight at the rear) and exit oversteer (the rear weighs too much for the tires to handle, and it is easy to break it free).
A slide is useful only if your setup behaves in order to increase the effects of the mass transfers.
This is why we can't say that a slide if always faster or always slower than not sliding. It depends on how the driver drives and how the car is set up. If it is set up for stability, then sticking to the road would be faster (if one of the ends break free, then you'll understeer really bad). If your car is set up to use the mass transfers as a way to increase it's cornering power (low front damping/high rear damping for FR cars | high front damping/compression-rebound rear damping quasi equal for a MR-RR car), then you might consider sliding.

But, stop the OT : please precise what you call mid-corner. Does it matches the definition it gave above? Otherwise, please explain

i think you'd be surprised at how close our opinions are, the main issue i see is we are getting caught up too much on technicalities that aren't really imperative to the discussion.

i think there is a bit of misunderstanding of what we both are trying to say, which seems to be caused mostly by different terminology used differently.

Quote :

A) One which is very entry-oriented, in which you enter the corner with a tad more speed than you would do if you kept your tires sticking to the road. During transient 1, you get your tire to the angle you like. If you catch too much angle, and think that it could jeopardize your balance when you'll apply the throttle, then you use very briefly transient * to stabilize the angle. During transient 2, your car should keep the same momentum, and the same "relative angle". During transient 3, your car will still slide a bit, and regain the grip roughly around halfway between the apex and the exit point.
This is done mainly in tight corners, where sliding can help carrying the momentum, on low powered and light cars. The angles can be "quite high" here, depending on the nature of the corner, its line, whether it is uphill or downhill, etc.

this is what i am talking about mostly, and yeh its all about momentum.

Quote :

So, what you call mid-corner, would be the moment where the only inputs are the steering ones, because it occurs between the moment of right before you hit the apex and right after hitting it?

i think you could probably say its between the first real turn in towards the apex, and before you go full throttle.

i remember a quote from a top gear episode a while back where a former F1 driver was teaching jeremy to race, and he said don't hit the throttle until you know you wont have to back off for the rest of the corner.

which once again feeds my statement that mid corner the rear tyres are not doing as much as the fronts are without acceleration or much decceleration, and that during that period the front tyres are the limiting factor.

Quote from nisskid :

i think you'd be surprised at how close our opinions are.

i think you could probably say its between the first real turn in towards the apex, and before you go full throttle.

i remember a quote from a top gear episode a while back where a former F1 driver was teaching jeremy to race, and he said don't hit the throttle until you know you wont have to back off for the rest of the corner.

which once again feeds my statement that mid corner the rear tyres are not doing as much as the fronts are without acceleration or much decceleration, and that during that period the front tyres are the limiting factor.

Okay, that's why I wanted you to precise what you called mid-corner
So yeah, sliding in the first part of the corner is good. You are right when you say that the front tires are the limiting factor : because they usually have enough grip during this transient.

There are two ways to make the front tires lose grip during a slide :
- Accelerate (to shift the masses toward the rear)
- Do not countersteer, or countersteer too lightly.

This is why in fast slides, you see the drivers countersteering, but just very lightly, just before the point where the front tires usually have much more grip than the rear, which will make your car behave like in a "show" drift. You, obviously won't touch the throttle yet, since you don't have hit the apex yet.
Also, it is important to note that applying lightly the brakes between the entry and the apex is better to induce understeer, than countersteering, since your car won't see its momentum broken.

Once again, this can only be useful in cars that are tuned to improve the mass transfers effects. And it also depends on the kind of corner, the track, the tires obviously, etc..

Quote from Zen321 :

Okay, that's why I wanted you to precise what you called mid-corner
So yeah, sliding in the first part of the corner is good. You are right when you say that the front tires are the limiting factor : because they usually have enough grip during this transient.

yeh this is what was being contested early on in the thread, tristan was saying that a car should be on the rear tyres limit through the whole of the corner including mid-corner.

This thread has gone all mushy. We need more arguing!

Quote from nisskid :

yeh this is what was being contested early on in the thread, tristan was saying that a car should be on the rear tyres limit through the whole of the corner including mid-corner.

Well, there must have been a misunderstanding about what is called the limit. If it is the grip limit, then no. but I think Tristan was more referring to the "Slip Zone", which is the limit of traction. In that case, he is right.

Driving in the Slip Zone is basically sacrifying a bit of lateral grip to combine the remaining lateral grip with some longitudinal grip to acheive more overall grip. So, in that sense, you stay at the limit of traction even if your rear is lightly sliding

Quote from March Hare :

This thread has gone all mushy. We need more arguing!

I have to argue with you, because I don't think that thread got mushy! It has stayed at the traction limit of mushyness, without going into the downward slope with a high angle.

Quote from nisskid :

yeh this is what was being contested early on in the thread, tristan was saying that a car should be close to the rear tyres limit through the whole of the corner including mid-corner.

Corrected. That is what I said. If you are using 99% of the front tyres potential grip but only 1% of the rears then you will be slow. It needs to more like 99/90. This came about as you claimed the rear tyres do **** all mid corner.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Corrected. That is what I said. If you are using 99% of the front tyres potential grip but only 1% of the rears then you will be slow. It needs to more like 99/90. This came about as you claimed the rear tyres do **** all mid corner.

lol you thought i meant the rear tyres do 1% of the work?

Isn't that the generally accepted meaning of "**** all" (though I still don't actually know what **** stands for, but I'm making an educated guess it begins with f)? Or is this another example of you using terminology badly?

Quote from tristancliffe :

Isn't that the generally accepted meaning of "**** all" (though I still don't actually know what **** stands for, but I'm making an educated guess it begins with f)? Or is this another example of you using terminology badly?

the term is relative not absolute, so no.

f**k all is pretty absolute really. It means none or very close to none. Have you thought about working on your terminology and meanings of words and phrases lately?

/facepalm,

Can't drifters go to lfs-torque if they have such a problem with ''grippers''
instead of starting discussions everytime they come here?

Kthx

It doesn't matter if it's relative or absolute. If you say the rear tyres do f*** all then that would mean they do nothing (obviously not correct), if you say they do f*** all compared to the front tyres then that would mean the front tyres do the majority of the work, which isn't correct either.

Quote from AndroidXP :

It doesn't matter if it's relative or absolute. If you say the rear tyres do f*** all then that would mean they do nothing (obviously not correct), if you say they do f*** all compared to the front tyres then that would mean the front tyres do the majority of the work, which isn't correct either.

it wasnt phrased too well i admit. but it does make a difference whether its absolute or relative, i meant relative to the fronts, and on some corners the rear tyres are using **** all of their lateral grip. i made this very clear, so once again my statement was true.

say u go to drive around a cone, turn in, coast around then power out, how much rear lateral grip do you think you're using in the mid corner before applying throttle out of the corner on the exit? i can tell you, **** all. an extreme example, but it demonstrates whats going on.

Quote from nisskid :

it wasnt phrased too well i admit. but it does make a difference whether its absolute or relative, i meant relative to the fronts, and on some corners the rear tyres are using **** all of their lateral grip. i made this very clear, so once again my statement was true.

say u go to drive around a cone, turn in, coast around then power out, how much rear lateral grip do you think you're using in the mid corner before applying throttle out of the corner on the exit? i can tell you, **** all.

That's why you can floor it right away going into a tight corner - oh wait... F*ck all, yeah right... :rolleyes:

Pic is a RAC in LfS' one of two tightest corners, being mid-engined the car has quite a bit of grip on the rear from the start... Notice how the car is coasting and even on this very understeery setup, the outside rear tyre is working quite hard to keep traction?

And this is way those of the drifting fraternity and those of the racing fraternity will never be able to get along on these forums.

Quote from nisskid :

say u go to drive around a cone, turn in, coast around then power out, how much rear lateral grip do you think you're using in the mid corner before applying throttle out of the corner on the exit? i can tell you, **** all. an extreme example, but it demonstrates whats going on.

In this (and only this) situation the rear tyres only do little if you don't make them steer (=slide) enough. Congrats, you just described the one situation where we all agree drifting is most definitely faster (if you didn't notice, going around a cone = hairpin).

Androids got it - I can't think of many situations where the rear tyres do anywhere NEAR f*ck all.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Androids got it - I can't think of many situations where the rear tyres do anywhere NEAR f*ck all.

The only other situation I can think of is this:

Quote from bbman :

That's why you can floor it right away going into a tight corner - oh wait... F*ck all, yeah right... :rolleyes:

Pic is a RAC in LfS' one of two tightest corners, being mid-engined the car has quite a bit of grip on the rear from the start... Notice how the car is coasting and even on this very understeery setup, the outside rear tyre is working quite hard to keep traction?

no u cant floor it into a tight corner like that, because it will push so violently against ur steering angle it will just understeer you. also due to the lack of speed, lower gear, and often a tight diff, it is very easy to power oversteer. this is irrelavent how ever to my point.

also with that pic, not exactly a cone like in my example, but what do those colours mean exactly? for instance the front are red and the rear is green. i still dont know about a lot of these features in LFS, but it looks to me like it indicates either suspension com[pression or force on the tyres.

Quote from AndroidXP :

In this (and only this) situation the rear tyres only do little if you don't make them steer (=slide) enough. Congrats, you just described the one situation where we all agree drifting is most definitely faster (if you didn't notice, going around a cone = hairpin).

and remind me what my original point was?

wait i'll do it for you: Drift CAN be faster,

it CAN be faster, im right and i win

*covers ears

la la la la