Thank you, I'll have a look for it. I tried some faster oversteery setups on the weekend and did better, but think I need to change the gain on my keyboard throttle control, as I think maybe it's applying the throttle too had as most of my spins are under power.

I've been trying other (fast) drivers setups on FBM Blackwood who are supposedly running a keyboard and mouse setup just like I am. The problem is, I find the rear very loose and because I have no force feedback, I have no feel that it is breaking away and as a result I end up oversteering on most corners. I'm at a loss to explain why. Is my mouse set up more sensitive or?

I'm not flinging it into corners either, I just find every quick KBM setup I drive has a loose rear, it's always breaking traction no matter what I do, so at the moment I'm having to run a more neutral setup but then that understeers more and I end up burning my front tyres up. I want to get a FFB wheel but in the meantime does anyone have any ideas?

Quote from vitaly_m :

Former mouse driver reporting in.

Wheel is not necessarily faster, especially if you have eazy mouse track. But there are things that are significantly harder with mouse:

• curved braking lines (someone mentioned ABS hacks?), trail braking and even normal braking
  
• following another car or going side by side
  
• being stable for more than ~5 minutes stint
  

Some people can overcome this to pretty high degree, but what myself gained with wheel is ability to do long stints which helped a lot to develop in this game. After I got better I can even switch to mouse with FO8 and be alright for couple laps. (Before buying wheel I couldn't drive FO8 at all).

Just keep in mind that you gonna have to learn the game from the ground up again

Quote from BeNoM :

I don't agree with that, there's been multiple posts (all of which are quite a few years old, so I could only find one) that I've read about people asking why they cou;dn't beat Mouse/KB users and how Mouse/KB users got Word Records.
(For example: https://www.lfs.net/forum/thread/1335-ks-%26-mouse-vs--wheel)

I've played LFS one all 3, mouse keyboard and wheel, and I'm much faster with mouse and even beat quite a lot of wheel users online.

Of course whee;s have more precision, that's why their slower... With a mouse you can go full lock either way within a matter of milliseconds because there's no FFB and because there's no auto-centre which is what wheels have.

Look, I'm not here to argue with anyone, I'm just stating the facts that mouses are quicker. If you don't belive you can look through the forum posts and WR's.

Anyways, have a good night

Interesting posts. I guess like anything, some are better with KB&M and some are better with a Wheel. I've yet to try a wheel but believe I will be better for the reasons given that I will have better feel with the car and will be able to get consistency.

For example, My best ever lap at FBM Blackwood is 1:13.90, which I know is quite a bit off the ultimate pace. Consistently, I can do mid to low 1:14's but because I've had to adopt a more understeering setup with my mouse, if I push more then I just pile straight on at corners. The other issue is consistency like I say. Most corners I am fine but the final corner at Blackwood I lose probably 1/2 or even a full second. I cannot get a rhythm through there! Looking at others, it should be a small lift then power through there in 4th gear. While some laps (probably 2/10) I get it perfect, the next lap I try and do the same thing and it just drives straight on. I know some of it is me, but I feel I will improve here with a wheel.

Anyway thanks for responding all.

Quote from Gutholz :

Hi
With keyboard/mouse driving those cars is harder. A ffb wheel gives feedback so it is possible to react before the car spins because you feel it coming. With mouse it is more of a surprise and when you see the spin it is already too late.
One can learn that too, but the process of blind trial & error is slower than feeling it naturally with wheel.

Yes, that could be one setting to adjust.
But just to make sure: It is "engine brake reduction", so you would want a high setting to have less engine brake.
Also try to shift gears down later. (Maybe even do not shift down for a turn at all until the exit, and then gradually shift down earlier)

Thanks so much Gultholz, that made it so much better! It's still a bit loose on the rear and hard to drive given my control combination but it's at least stable enough for me to have fun now.

Quote from Forbin :

I don't know how anyone can drive the open-wheel cars in LFS without a force feedback wheel and pedals. I did alright with a joystick, with throttle on the trigger button and brake on the thumb button, but that was back when we only had 3 cars (what are now known as XFG, XRG, and XRT). Once I bought a wheel, things got a lot easier and I got a lot faster.

Is purchasing such a wheel completely out of the question?

FWIW, a lot of hotlap setups do tend to be very loose. Case in point, my recent race setup for FO8 @ SO5 had an extra degree in the rear wing compared to a hotlap setup a teammate provided me with. Even then, there were places I had to be very careful to avoid oversteer using my race setup.

In all honesty, no, it's not. I intend on getting a FFB wheel, I just haven't gotten around to it yet. I do expect my times to tumble once I have one so that's good to know.

Thanks.

I have been a fairly long term demo user and for a long time struggled with any 'Fast' setups and confidence with rear end grip. I am using a KB and Mouse and when using these setups the rear would spin around without any warning or feel. I got over it by inducing a more understeering setup but then I'm not as quick.

The Formula XR car seems much better, even on default setup I find it fairly well balanced.

I am now a S2 licence holder (hooray) and love the BMW Sauber. However I am having the same issues. At higher speeds it's not so much of an affect as the aero is clearly helping, but I am still having issues with very low rear grip/feel at low speeds, ESPECIALLY on downchange with this car. I even set the engine braking to 0 but if I am turning into a corner and it shifts into the lower gears (usually 1st and 2nd) then the back snaps around. It;s frustrating. How can I overcome this? Stiffening the rear end up?

Thanks.

What circuit is the first clip from? With the 2 Mini's racing through the uphill chicane?

Quote from Eclipsed :

Oh,cool,welcome to licenced users!

First download the .lyt file from main post,then double click to install it (if your LFS is configured right when installing,if not - save it into lfs\data\layout folder).
Then open LFS and...
1. Click to select Westhill environment
2. Select the "X" beside International configuration to select open configuration
3. Select the right layout

That's how you access the track on single player,no idea if there is a server with it anywhere...

Thank you.

However, I can't get it to work. I installed it just as you said (method 1 worked, but I tried method 2 just in case). I can select the track if I click X on the Westhill International but it doesn't bring the track up. What am I doing wrong?

Quote from Eclipsed :

Right after you buy S2 licence!

I (finally) have an S2 licence, How do I find the server with this track on or do I download the model?

Thanks, Will keep at it then!

I want more grip but will work that out at some point

Right, I posted some time ago about some speed issues I was having with FBM Blackwood. Thank you to all who contributed but I have some follow ups now.

I have improved my laptimes don't to 1.14's now but cannot go any quicker. The issue is set up and the fact I can't feel the car. For your information I'm using Keyboard & Mouse.

The setup I've been using is BL1_Smooth_race, available online. This is obviously quicker than the standard game FBM setup and it's nice and predictable, but if you start pushing/attacking then it's no good. I can upload a lap here if people want to see but I absolutely cannot get under the mid 1:14's with it. I can occasionally do a banzai lap and the best has been 1:14.34 or something, but not consistently. The setup tends to understeer a lot and is one of those ones where once you begin to push the front it just won't go into corners and you always have to turn in early with it, earlier than I'd like. if you try and turn in late to take a sweeping line it just understeers right off the track. The final turn I have to take a gear lower than others, and if I go wide to take the usual racing line, it just goes straight on! I'm probably losing a second on that corner alone, and notice others are using hardly any lock compared to me.

So, other racers have kindly given me their setups, these are drivers lapping in the 1:12/1:13 bracket at least (and some 1:11 I believe). However I can't even properly try these setups as they are way too 'yaw sensitive'. By that I mean that the car spins with little warning even when you are just on a sighting lap, it's like the mouse it too sensitive but also under acceleration out of a corner the back lights up and is wanting to spin, though this is probably a function of the steering being too sensitive.

I have set the button control rate down which works well for the smooth race setup but doesnt seem to help with the others, is my first step to try and adjust the mouse/steering sensitivity? I really want to start getting into the 12's and 13's and have realised that I need to adjust to the faster setups rather then trying to go faster with the setup I have which is at its limit.

Thanks in advance.

Last edited by Welshie, Wed, 19 Aug 2015 12:59.

Thanks for that. I;ve been concerned in the past that it means I'll get a bad reputation or banned or something. But it sounds like it's the norm on demo servers.

You're joking right?!

Quote from UnknownMaster21 :

the 1023 means every possible official Car/Track combo, for example for BL1 you have 20 different cars to drive, that makes 20, + Reverse, that makes 40, and with BL2, you have 10 different cars to drive, that makes total 50 + reverse (BL2R) = 60 combos

All possible official combos are 1024 + non-official + open config official tracks + custom tracks + custom layouts + you

Ahh, makes sense

Quote from Shirtkicker :

I've met many drivers with S2 licenses who have never bothered to read this. Their attitude will always be that it was your fault, not theirs, and "you need to learn to be more aware of what is going on".

That's an actual quote from a guy on an S2 server who deliberately put me into the fence for boxing him in while he was trying to draft past someone else. Not so funny at the time, but a perfect example of the mentality you will encounter in this game, no matter what server you connect to.

Thanks for that, good to know it;s not just me. I try to be aware of others but I'm racing, i'm not going to just leap out of everyones way. I think some of the issue is I'm a bit old school in that I prefer having a damn hard scrap for 3rd place then just winning because everyone else is much slower. But I think a lot of people (and this is in real racing too) just care about their 'stat's', no matter how they get them.

I've had a number of people just turn in on me, it's like they don't use their look left/right option then blame me when I'm the one on the inside! The other day, I was going down the back straight at Blackwood and one guy came up my inside, then later on the the straight another up the outside, and both just came across on me like I wasn't there, when i realised both were coming over I backed off (not that it was my place to do so) but not in time and something like this happened:



Of course I got blamed being the 'rookie'! I hink especially in FBM with limited peripheral vision, people just assume if they can't see you on their screen you aren't there.

Thanks for the posts though, it's been insightful reading.

Quote from UnknownMaster21 :

You do good, once now you have mastered that combo, try the next 1023 ones . Then when you have to master all the layouts done by S2-racers :P And then you need to master your own!

Thank you, what are the 1023 ones?

Quote from Gutholz :

I think on demo servers it is a rule/expected to spectate asap when you crash. (shift+s)

The driver score thing is specifique to some server and they can have their own rating systems. (it is not global like stats on lfsworld)

Some kick-voters might not even have seen what happend.
One guy starts vote, maybe writes "crasher" in chat and then others blindly press vote-yes button.
Or maybe someone really deseverd kick but you did not see what he did.
Demo is very mixed..totally new drivers, good drivers, people who are very fast on their trained ideal line but crash when they have to move. Explosive mixture.
Not worth to lose sleep over.

Thanks for clearing that up, I wont bother being concerned!

When can I try it?!

This isn't a complaint, just an observation as I know this isn't the place to bring up issues with particular servers but my understanding is that from free licence holders there are a number of 'Demo' servers available for, in this case, FBM.

Being Demo servers, it presumably is to be expected that there will be varying quality of driver skills on there, so why do some quicker (S2?) drivers get really offensive towards more rookie users? Correct me if I'm wrong but I think most servers have a delta lap time which if you can't lap in that time you get booted, so say on Blackwood the spread is 1:13-1:16, I've had experience of some drivers voting to kick or ban drivers who seem to be driving ok, but just aren't up to speed yet. If thats the case can they not just go to a more experienced server?

I'm not making accusations, I am a rookie and genuinely don't know. I have been racing Blackwood FBM for 6 months on and off and using a keyboard/mouse am currently having some issues so only lapping in the low 1:15's (my best yesterday was a 1:15 dead). At the starts I have sometimes been blamed and attempted to be kicked for hitting someone who had already spun right in front of me or if say someone has clipped me going into a corner, I overcorrect on the mouse and spin off yet I get blamed and one even got kicked for 'bad driving'. Is this some people just being idiots?

A few drivers have told me that any contact deducts points off that drivers overall score or something but some have also said that until you are doing below 1:15's you shouldnt race online but just practice on your PC. I understand people not wanting their races affected but 1. If they are on Demo servers do they not expect some people to be learning and hence slower? and 2. I always find I go quicker in a race than practice. Call it red mist if you will but yesterday in a race because I got a good start and was trying to hang onto the leaders I shaved 7 tenths off my best lap, I wouldn't get that going round on my own.

So, because I appear to naive, can someone clarify that for me?

Thanks.

Quote from GAVD999 :

Just go on any of the good clean demo servers (AA as mentioned are great) and ask on there if anyone can send you a setup to try. You may get a few idiots on demo servers but you also get plenty more who will help you.

Another thing you might want to try is if you upload a replay of a couple of laps of your driving on here you may get a lot more detailed advice as people can then see exactly what you are doing and point you in right direction on how to help correct things.

Good luck and the main thing keep practising, remember some of the guys you mention in your first post have over 10,000 laps on that combo. Speed and consistency will come

Thanks, I might just do that. I looked last night though and couldn't find an AA demo server for FBM, only rallycross. All that was on there was MrC and Animal. I'll look again tonight. I raced last night and improved 7/10s to do a 1:15.00 so I'm getting there. I think I need a pretty big setup change to make up 2 more seconds or so though so I'll work on that.

Quote from Gutholz :

Maybe, you wrote you have difficulty to "feel" the car. FFB wheel is not like real life but better than keyboard/mouse. One can learn how to drive with keyboard..but some things that KB drivers have to learn come just natural with wheel. Like feeling grip, catching a slide or driving a different line when you overtake...All maybe possible to learn with keyboard, but not as intuitive.

Agreed, It's just a casual thing for me while the weather is good but later in the year when we are stuck indoors all winter I intend on buying the S2 licence and getting a wheel, thanks for clarifying what I thought.

Quote from GreyBull [CHA] :

At which value did you set button control rate?(Option > Controls) If you say you are struggling to keep it straight on corner exit, maybe the value is a bit too high(ie: it goes from no throttle to full throttle too quickly). I'd suggest to set it to 2(minimum value), and see if you make any improvement from there.

Interesting, I never knew I could do that! I'll certainly try it next time I play, thanks!!

Quote :

Does the set use R1(softer) or R2(harder) tyres? R1 can be quite tricky on tyre management. LFS' tyre model is a bit broken on some aspect, one of which is tyre heat. You can check tyre temperature with F9. If the core of the tyre turns lime green/yellow-ish, they're probably over-heating.

That I'm not sure, I will check tonight. The setup I've downloaded and currently using is much better in terms of tyre life so I'd imagine thats using harder ones. But you've all given me something to ponder next time I get to my PC, thanks

Quote :

Hope this helps.

Helped a lot!

Thanks for the reply. Oh yes I know about the comfortable/fast argument, the truth is when I tried some of the setups mentioned I instantly gained noticeable improvements in laptime, but being consistent was the hard part.

Looking at some videos online, it seems that most fast BMW laps are loose on the rear, but their corner speed looks much faster than mine, so I think I'm lacking overall grip.

I will for a start, ask AirAtack, thanks for that. Do I get hold of them on this forum or in their servers?

Hi All,

Relative newbie to LFS and I’m mainly into the single seater racing. I’m currently only a S1 licence holder but want to get some more practice to be competitive before I go S2. I use a keyboard and mouse combination for the Blackwood Formula BMW (FBM) racing but I’m really struggling to find a setup I am comfortable with. I want a base setup that I’m comfortable with then can tweak a bit, as I don’t want to spend hours starting from scratch.

I have plenty of real racing experience but not much sim racing experience. The main issue I am having at the moment is while I like the standard FBM_Blackwood setup; 1: It EATS front tyres to the point after 3 laps I’m cruising around on full lock turning into corners, the Titanic would probably steer better and 2. I cannot get below a 1:16 laptime with this setup.

So get a different setup you say? I have tried, from other threads on here, various setups.

https://www.lfs.net/forum/thread/69600-Blackwood-FBM-setups

From here I have tried Trema, Jachna, Bawbag and Panic vaihd (which has done a laptime of 1:11.98) and my best lap now is about a 1:15.7 BUT the main issue with me is rear end stability. None of these setups give me any confidence in the rear even though they are faster than the FBM_Blackwood setup, every single one when under power the rear steps out (bear in mind I’m using a keyboard/mouse combo). It’s power traction related as opposed to aero grip because on the fast corners it’s fine, It’s only under power is spins out and being a game, you don’t get the feel you get in real life. So at turns 1, 4, 5 and the final turn at Blackwood, coming out of the corner I am always tentative on the throttle or if not, then correcting lots of oversteer which gives me no confidence to push. I feel I’m used to the game, car and track enough now know know that I won’t get any faster until this is sorted.

So, any tips for setup? Do I need to get a steering wheel?

Thanks in advance.