I love it when people read my posts through clearly before replying.

I never stated that me and a small team of people could create a simulation with the advanced tyre physics model in 2 years. I said that we should be able to come up with a product comparable to what LFS currently offers now in 2 years assuming I had the basic programming skills that anyone developing a game would expect to have before starting.
I can think of quite a few racing games/simulations that were released to the community within 2 years, they may not be the finished product, but that's the point, I never claimed that I could offer a finished product either, unless you consider S2 to be the finished LFS product which is what I was comparing to.
As to what my mechanics/motorsport background has given me in regards to the mathematics involved, I feel comfortable with my knowledge. It's just a case of learning how to convert those mathematics into program code which everyone who attempts this kind of thing has to learn at some point. I certainly don't see any loss there.

Quote from pezia :

Highly detailed models (geometric and texture wise) with proper shaded materials would look nice though.

This is the sort of thing I'd like to see. I'm not asking for the stunning visuals of an EA game, (they need them 'cos the actual gameplay is always lacking,) but trying to cater for 10 year old pc technology whilst creating a cutting edge simulator is just ridiculous. Who can blame people for looking enviously at products like iracing and deciding the premium is worth paying.

Quote from amp88 :

So, despite having no experience in the field (by your own admission) you're sure that you could surpass LFS within a couple of years? Well...it's certainly a bold statement and avoiding the burden of proof is a master stroke.

I am sure based on the fact that I wouldn't be afraid to accept help on the project, instead of the burden being carried by 1-3 people, (not sure what Victor's role in the project is,) plus knocking out a physics engine with average graphics should be no problem for a small group of up to 6 people to achieve in 2 years.
I am only now beginning to learn C++ programming and so I'd assume that S3 will actually be released before I am able to assemble such a group of people, but I shall carry on learning regardless due to a wish for an accurate banger recing simulator and not expecting someone to create one for me.

Quote from amp88 :

Oh, you do? How did you come to have this respect? I hate to go back to it, but you've already said you have no experience. I see you have a background in "mechanics", but building an accurate tyre model isn't just about copying some formulae from a text book and plugging them into the computer. There are very few people who truly know how hard it is to develop an accurate tyre model. The fact that there have been several independent efforts (from groups of developers and lone developers alike) and none are quite there yet stands as a testament. Even the ones that are being used by F1 teams for their simulators are being improved constantly and they have budgets in the tens of millions of GBP (if not higher). Sure, some tyre models are 'better' than others and some are improving all the time, but how many of them are accurate (or within a small degree of error) in the broad spectrum of scenarios which are encountered in the real world? How many can't handle low speed situations well? How many behave accurately at high tyre surface temperatures? How many can't cope with cars that produce downforce?

Yes I do respect how difficult it is for the exact reasons you stated above. I too am aware of other efforts to recreate an accurate tyre physics model and how they have all struggled, so no, I don't have to know how to code one myself to appreciate the difficulty. By your logic, you don't appreciate the difficulty Scawen is facing because you don't know how to do it yourself.

Quote from amp88 :

Same stuff that's been said time and time again. Nothing to comment on here.

You may feel there is nothing to comment on as it's been said repeatedly now, but there is a reason people keep talking about the commercial aspect. No one would take on such a project in the first place unless they had aspirations of making money from it, otherwise, why do we have to pay for a licence? Surely if the simulator is purely being made for their own pleasure, Scawen and co would either give it away for free or they would have never released LFS into the public domain.

I really wish I'd taken the path now to learning programming in college instead of mechanics, then I could try creating a racing simulator myself. I would find a bunch of other dedicated souls to work with and together, I am sure that we could surpass LFS within a couple of years. The reason I say this is because although I respect the amount of work involved in creating an accurate tyre physics model, it seems to have become the entire future of LFS.
I really do think that if this project is to have any future commercially, priorities need to switch to fixing existing faults, (that are supposedly done alrady, but waiting for the big physics update,) and releasing the content that is completed. Call it S3 with everything bundled in apart from the tyre physics and I will pay £36 for it providing the graphics have received a freshen up so it doesn't look like an 8 year old game.
The tyre physics could become S4 or S3b, but basically, if you wait too long before releasing anything, there will hardly be anyone left to buy it which makes all that work go to waste.

Quote from dawesdust_12 :

I'm shocked the brits beat around the bush so much and don't just have a town named "****Off".

If it counts, when you drive into Wisbech from a certain direction, the welcome sign does have that graffiti'd on it.

Quote from boothy :

I based my last post on the fact that you've not done any online racing. http://www.lfsworld.net/?win=stats&racer=Nick%20Brad shows that you haven't. So if you'd like to show us your other account...

Not sure why it isn't showing my racing history, I can only assume that as it was using a different pc and I had to re-download the demo, it got lost somehow. There is no other account to show however, I don't beleive in multiple accounts for anything other than my bank and that's only to have an easy way to seperate my savings and disposable cash.

Quote :

Could you give an example of these league rules if you don't mind?

That was based on watching old races on youtube of the STCC where points were given a multiplier based on what tracks they raced and which cars were suited to that track. I'm not sure how other leagues work as I haven't signed up to any, not having S2 there didn't seem any point.

Quote :

Hmm, what do we have here?

Quote :

Originally Posted by Nick Brad
(or maybe not if they're encapsulated in their own little bubble too much to read my posts thoroughly and see what I am actually saying).

That was posted as I was frustrated at keep repeating myself and people cherry picking my posts for the simple point of using it against me. I expect it from tabloid newspapers, but intelligent users of an internet forum.......... It wasn't aimed at anyone in particular, simply something to hopefully goad people into reading everything I had said and try to understand my point of view, rather than just flame me for it. Not the best way to go about it, but like I said, I was frustrated by other peoples actions and I let it get to me.

Quote :

If you're an oval racing fan and you're waiting for the release of S3 just to play at Rockingham oval (which is pretty much the same type of oval as Kyoto) then you're even more silly than I thought. If you can't road race, don't want to league race, and don't want to buy S2 then frankly you're just trollin'.

Kyoto does offer some oval racing, but I foolishly believed that S3 included an oval racing car to go with Rockingham, (a mystery car was originally stated). I would like to race in a league very much so, the interaction with other racers can be very enjoyable and lead to real life friendships, but some of the attitudes displayed on this forum have put me against wanting to deal with those people in a racing environment. I do not and will not allow myself to be bullied into silence or submission by someone just because our opinions differ, but more importantly, I won't race alongside someone who I feel is unneccessarily agressive and probably will have no respect for his fellow racers. Also, I can road race, I just prefer to race ovals, everyone is different. Some people like drifting or drag racing, each to his own I guess, I'm not going to shoot them down for it.
If having a difference of opinion and wanting to express that opinion so it is understood correctly is trolling, then sign me up for a green suit and find me a nice bridge I can hide under and wait for the goats to cross.

That's not bad AI, that's just Michael Schumacher taking his line ready for the next corner.

Quote from PMD9409 :

Whenever a demo person joins in on conversation recently, I have been agreeing in my head countless times.

If you were a demo racer at this very point in time, would you buy S2, and why?

I personally wouldn't. Eventhough I have had 5 great years in this sim, I wouldn't buy it at this point in time. There's absolutely no point to. You look at the development, you see nothing released in the past 2 years. You look at the community, and you see people complaining about development, while the others complain about the complainers.

In the end it's not something that is tempting and I want to be a part of.

You've hit the nail on the head there, when S2 was first released I would have purchased it in a heartbeat had I felt confident enough about my internet connection at the time. iRacing was still First racing and on a search and destroy mission for anyone still wanting to advance the NR2k3 code, no one had heard of NKP and even the disappointment that is Arca Sim Racing was still on the drawing board. With no oval prospects in sight of course I would have taken the best possible circuit racing simulation. Now it is looking dated and it's not unreasonable to request an update of actual content after so much time.

Quote from boothy :

Think it's you that is in the bubble mate. You don't seem to have ventured online, so how you can judge LFS is beyond me.

I judge it based on the fact that I have raced online, albeit using demo servers and by looking at what content is available. (Something you have missed in my multiple posts it seems by your comments.)
I realise that I can't experience all the track variations offered by S2, I realise that I am limited in the cars I can use, I realise that I can't take advantage of league rules that effectively equalise the different cars. None of this bothers me much though as I have said before because I am AN OVAL RACING FAN!!! Therefore, the demo meets any requirements that I may have for circuit racing, in fact, if I paid for S2, i'd probably still only use the same tracks as I'm not particularly interested in learning how to go fast on the other ones.
So far, the only person who has replied to me directly without choosing to insult me and actually take the time to read what I have posted is Ingolf. If I have to become a sheep and follow everyone elses thinking to fit in then league racing holds nothing for me either I guess as I have my own mind.
Roll on the eventual release of S3, then LFS will get my money and not until then.

I'm sure that there is no comparison between demo and S2, I appreciate that, but at the same time I refuse to part with my money until I am sure that updates will actually be released before I hit 40, (only 11 and a half years to go). The other issue is that I come from an oval racing background, been at the tracks since before I even started school, grew up and was a spotter at Rockingham for quite a few years until oval racing pretty much went belly up there, (still have my licence though if any of the pickup teams need a backup).
What does S2 offer me specifically beyond what I can do in the demo? Sure the competition will be better and I am less likely to be racing against noobs who crash every other lap through pushing too hard, but if I am not as good at circuit racing then it just opens up the possibility of propping up the grid numbers for those that do excel at circuit racing. If NR2k3 hadn't become so dated I wouldn't have even looked elsewhere and discovered LFS, hopefully people will have more understanding now why S3's release is so important to me, (or maybe not if they're encapsulated in their own little bubble too much to read my posts thoroughly and see what I am actually saying).

Quote from JO53PHS :

....It cannot be compared to an unfinished kitchen or bathroom. If you have no water plumbed into your sink or your bathtub has not been installed, the bathroom is completly UNUSABLE. This is not the case with LFS.

I'm not comparing it to an unfinished bathroom or kitchen, it's an unfinished house. What you have is completely usable, but you know that there's some missing and you'd rather wait for it to be completed before paying for it.

That is probably true, although I remember the possibility of adding our own tracks once the product was completed. I don't know if that's still going to be an option though, hopefully not as for every detailed recreation of a real track or planned and well executed imaginary track, there will be dozens of badly thought out fantasy tracks that will have limited practical use and clog up people's hard drives for a one time usage.

The fact that Rockingham used to be my home from home and extra cars were promised made me consider this a product still in development and my faith in LFS has meant that I haven't walked away yet. I'm hoping that my queries posted earlier will be answered, but if there's no further updates by summer, I may well remove the demo version and let LFS slip into obscurity.

Quote from anttt69 :

Whats the matter, to tight to buy S1?

Yes as it happens, when it concerns throwing money at a product that may never be improved/finished. Consider it this way, would you pay for a bathroom only or maybe a bathroom and bedroom, (S1 and S2 respectively,) knowing that it's taken two years so far for the kitchen and living room to be built and there's still no firm date for completion?

Why waste £12 on part of the product I want if i'll never be able to buy the next installment? I'd rather put that £12 toward something else. Now, if you think it's such a petty sum of money, feel free to buy the S1 licence for me.

Looks like my money will be staying in my pocket for a bit longer then.

I really hope that a change of thought goes on soon, if the tyre model can't be completed by easter, (yes, we know and respect the difficulties this has caused Scawen,) then surely it makes sense to release the rest of the content, ie, new track and car plus some other fixes for long running bugs as S3 and then release the updated tyre physics at a later date. The graphics do need an overhaul really, I'm not after GT5 flashy presentation, but 8 year old graphics don't really cut it anymore unfortunately, £36 would net a much better racing simulator than what S3 is currently offering, even if the physics aren't as accurate.

If the devs want to play in their spare time at making the most accurate driving simulator possible then that is up to them, none of us have a right to critisize that, however, if they want a marketable product that they wish to charge people to use, then they have to wise up and alter their priorities a bit. Annual updates are a minimum requirement really, even if it is only cars/tracks or a graphic update, a physics revision or whatever. Leaving people who have already paid out in the cold for 2 years plus is a customer service disaster if you want them to send more money your way in the future.

I'd like clarification from one of the team on which direction they are taking this product, if it's not going to be for the benefit of it's users, then I'm happy to pony up and buy an iRacing subsription to get my racing fix. (I can also race on ovals that way so it won't be too heartbreaking.)

Good idea in theory, but what's to stop you pitting from the lead with a big gap, then as yuo leave the pits, you're held up by the blue light because the second place car's approaching, undoing all your hard work.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Yes, it is necessary to know the height specifically - how else will you ever repeat the wonderful handing you one day find yourself with if you don't know how the car was set up?

Save the setup, lol. That isn't possible in the real world, (unless you save the settings in a file on your laptop,) but in the game it is, so therefore it's not an essential thing in my view at the moment. I feel that if it's set as something that can be altered directly, you'll end up with loads of boy racers just dropping the car to the deck and then complaining because it handles like a turd, even though they've "lowered the centre of gravity".

Yes, you can alter the ride height directly, but that usually has an affect on weight distribution and so on. NFS games and such just allow you to alter it to make your car look "cool".
Then again, I only work on oval setups in the real world so maybe circuit racing is different......

If no one steps forward before then, i'll be happy to wait. After all, you are giving up your free time to do it so I don't expect anyone to immediately "down tools" just to help me, lol.

I'm not sure whether I'd want that, how do you mean exactly?

Do you mean as something you can alter on a sliding scale or just something that shows the ride height based on your setup? Ride height isn't usually altered by itself, rather as a result of altering other suspension settings.

I wish I had your skills, some seriously gorgeous work here.

No worries, lol. :bump:

I thought he wanted the "Need For Speed" look, lol.

Can anyone assist me with my rendering request please? I posted the skins in the "render request" thread, but if no one has the time to do a garage scene, I'd be perfectly happy to have them as seperate shots or lined up outside together even, if that's possible.

I realise that, but I've always been someone who would rather resurrect an old thread than start a new one for the sake of it.

Hi all,

If someone has the time, would it be possible to do a render of my cars in a team garage? I've seen a few on here, but I neither have the programs or the skills to produce one myself.

If anyone can help, i'll post up the skins later. (Photobucket being a pain atm.)








Many thanks in advance to anyone who can help.

Last edited by Nick Brad, Thu, 17 Dec 2009 18:07. Reason : Photobucket playing ball

Not really skins as such, more just adult rated, (almost,) pictures slapped over a skin.