Quote from gru :

jankes, i had exactly same feeling when changed from mouse to wheel, it was like "steering help ON".
ok, i belive that real car would countersteer, but exactly like U i found LFS doing it "to perfect",
i can release wheel and FF will do job for me



thx for that reply Android
i was really confused reading all these posts (here and on polish forum where i asked) telling that "its ok, FF in LFS is exactly as in real, Ur wrong etc..."

to bad my MS FF drivers dont have such options, i can only turn off FF to get "real" driving

p.s. sorry for my eng

Dzieki za slowa poparcia Chociaz jedna osoba... Aczkolwiek jesli jedziesz na maksa samochod sam nie skontruje.

Last edited by jankes, Mon, 4 Dec 2006 12:55.

Ok I've done some extensive testing. I admit you're all right. Let this conversation conclude. LFS is accurate simulation and nothing is wrong with G25 FFB. The car will not recover itself when in race pace. I do have to do this by myself. Sorry for the frustration my insisting may have caused

Quote from Eric Tetz :

So, the rear end comes loose, the car begins to countersteer, you take your hands off the wheel and instead of the wheel going all the way to the lock, it automagically stops at the exact steering angle needed to get you through the current turn, given your current car, setup, balance, speed, slip angle, throttle/braking inputs, etc.? I don't see how that's possible. LFS doesn't have any kind of assisted steering option.

Maybe you're in spectator mode watching the AI drive? *lol*

I don't understand a thing now, these are the words of Eric Tetz a few posts above and that's exactly what it looks like. Everyone keeps cristicize me but the guy said it was impossible...
I repeat, I DO BELIEVE CARS BEHAVE IN THIS MANNER even though I have not experienced it. LFS implementation is somewhat suspicious to me though.

Last edited by jankes, Mon, 4 Dec 2006 08:43.

Quote from DaveWS :

Look, a car with no powersteering, and plenty of caster in the front wheels, WILL recover from a slide. However, the skill is required by the driver to prevent the car from overcorrecting or overstraightening, to stop the car from running wide, e.g. travelling straight on ahead. The skill is needed to regrip the wheel at the correct time, to make sure that the car is at the right angle for the corner that you are in. However this is not always easy, even with the so called "auto countersteer" which is real, because if you stop the wheel before the slide is fully corrected, you will spin into the turn and lose control. If you stop the wheel to late, you will end up running wide, rather than going around the corner. THIS is where the skill is involved.

Exactly, I know what you mean but unfortunately it doesn't look like this in LFS, the car will simply recover by itself without my intervention. That's what I'm talking about. I would like LFS to require skills in this matter, right now it's not the case. Apart from that I consider LFS the best simulation out there.

Last edited by jankes, Sun, 3 Dec 2006 18:26.

Quote from DaveWS :

Why are you so ignorant? Read the post above yours.

I'm not being ignorant, I'm trying to establish some knowledge. And I have read the posts above.

Quote from Gabkicks :

same here. the vid he posted maked me want the g25 so bad.

jankes... the g25 is not made for lfs... maybe you should send it to me. and i will give you my dfp which works great with lfs

I will consider this

Quote from Eric Tetz :

Your video shows you slamming into a wall. *confused*

Did you watch the drift videos that were posted? Did you see the wheel countersteer on it's own? Is that not what's happening to you?

The point of this coinversation starts to vanish. As I said the video I posted may not be the best example. You seem to listen but not hear. I DO acknowledge such behavior but the way it works in LFS is not satisfactory - meaning that I don't have to do anything to recover the car from a slide because it will ALWAYS recover by itself no matter how serious situation may be. Are you telling me this is normal? Are you all telling me that in reality you don't need any skills at all to recover a car from a slide? Bacause this is how it looks like in LFS, this is what I experience.

Quote from MadCatX :

Just watched your video again and tried to do same with may way worse DFP. Even DFP is able to "catch" a first slide, what it doesnt do is catching the next one "over correction" slide. I would understood to your complains if your slide was miraclously corrected and car continued straight on. According to your vid this is not what happens, forces affecting front wheels are just lowering oversteering, they are not substituting driver corrections completely.

My video is not exactly what I intended to show. The car behaves just as you have described - the slide is miraculously corrected and the car continues straight on.

Unfortunately the video does not show those miraculos corrections. I have told you: I DO believe that cars do those things but the way it's implemented in LFS is not real, I repeat: all I have to do to recover from oversteer is let go of the wheel and the car will recover by itself in every situation, applying just the required ammount of opposite lock making driver interaction usless - this is what I'm complaining about. I repeat I DO believe that cars behave in this manner in reality but only to some extent which unforunately is not simulated in LFS by the looks of things. Recovering is ridculously easy - letting go of the wheel and waiting for the car to stabilize virtualy in every situation. Do real cars do this? do they apply just the right ammount of opposite lock depending on the situation with wheel returning to initial position? Bacause that's how LFS cars behave. Again, I don't have to do anything to recover from a slide, just let the wheel do it by itself.

Last edited by jankes, Sun, 3 Dec 2006 12:58.

So the bottom line is: you don't have to do anything to catch a slide... which is of course not true. But that's how it is implemented in LFS, all I do now when sideways is let go of the steering wheel and wait for the car to stabilise.... then simply put my hands back on the wheel and drive on quite interesting But if you say it's correct, then ok.

Quote from MadCatX :

Good, I have just uploaded WMV version of your vid cause 3gp file is not playable with usual PC Players. Now I think that local "speed gurus" can tell you what is it all about.

Download here - http://rapidshare.com/files/5800566/MOV00002.wmv

Thanks, and your right, should have posted the wmv or avi. Sorry.

Ok, here's a video of what's happening. It was captured with cell phone so be undestanding. I hope you can make anything of it.
http://rapidshare.com/files/5799280/MOV00002.3gp.html - 1.3 MB. The video shows what's happening while doing donuts, the wheel just tries to opposite lock every slide. When oversteering while driving, all I've got to do to recover is just let go of the wheel and it will correct the car and position it straight. This is not normal. The cars don't recover just by themselves, this one does

Last edited by jankes, Sat, 2 Dec 2006 22:24.

Quote from Eric Tetz :

So, the rear end comes loose, the car begins to countersteer, you take your hands off the wheel and instead of the wheel going all the way to the lock, it automagically stops at the exact steering angle needed to get you through the current turn, given your current car, setup, balance, speed, slip angle, throttle/braking inputs, etc.? I don't see how that's possible. LFS doesn't have any kind of assisted steering option.

Maybe you're in spectator mode watching the AI drive? *lol*

Neither do I but it's happening...
The remark about specator mode is very funny, what's more it's immensely helpful...

Quote from Eric Tetz :

The MOMO wheel is a lot slower, i.e. less realistic. The G25 is still nowhere near as fast as a real car, but it's much closer than the MOMO. What you are seeing is closer to the real thing, not further.

Yes, if you oversteer, if the rear end comes loose, the front wheels are going to be forced into a countersteer. That's just physics.

User action is useless? Try letting go of the wheel and see what happens.

Heh, that's exactly what I am doing, letting go of the wheel But the car just recovers by itself. That's what's wrong. It corrects even the tiny slides. The wheel applies just the correct ammount of opposite lock to recover the car by itself, that's why I said it looks as if there's some kind of steering help on, but of course there's no such thing in LFS.

Last edited by jankes, Sat, 2 Dec 2006 21:29.

Quote from Eric Tetz :

There is no such feature in LFS or in the G25. What the wheel is doing is coming directly from the physics simulation, and is as accurate as LFS's physics engine and the G25 motor's speed/torque allow.

Go watch any drift video if you want to see what the wheel does when the rear end comes out. Here's one I just googled. You can see him push the wheel in the desired direction, but almost all the countersteering comes from the car itself (the wheel turns much faster than the G25 can).

I am aware that there is no such feature in LFS. So why were those effects absent when I was using red MOMO wheel? Besides, the wheel corects even the oversteer while exiting the corner, making user action almost usless. You won't tell me that real GTR car will correct th oversteer on corner exit.

Boris Lozac - yes I have done that but to no avail.

No one seems to understand my problem. I am not trying to convince any one that self corection is not right but only to some extent. The way it looks here is like some kind of auto opposite lock was turned on.

Quote from Davo :

You obviuosly haven't lost the back and let go of the steering wheel when driving your road car. Just watch a drift video, they let go of the wheel for a moment as it wants to auto correct and is faster that turning it by hand even.

Just because another game doesn't do this doesn't mean it's not real or correct.

Believe me I HAVE lost the back of my car many times, although I have never took part in drifting contest. Their cars are different, but still, I am NOT insisting that a car cannot correct by itself. It can, but only to some extent, this being only the first slide, once the car flips to the other side it will just spin.

I know about LFS being serious simulator, that's why I play it and as I said I have never experienced such issue with previous wheel. Interesting that no G25 owner reported such problem, may be my configuration specific problem.

It doesn't matter from the point of view of my problem. The car can catch first slide, but when the car flips to the other side - I don't think so, and that's what I meant. Anyway like I said, it won't solve my problem. When I turn off the FFB in LFS the problem is gone. once the FFB is on the wheel steers the car almost by itself, in those dangerous situations of course.

From my point of view il looks like some kind of steering help which applies opposite lock whenever the driver is in trouble which is unacceptable.

Where do I invert FFB in LFS?
I have never experienced the car opposite locking itself in real life, I'm not talking it's not possible though. As for LFS, yes I have had FFB wheels before - red MOMO, and never experienced this effect. I believe it's a problem with FFB in the game. It looks like this, I am driving at some high speed and suddenly my tail begins to slide righwards, the wheel turns by itself to opposite lock, then the tail slides left and wheel opposite locks as well - by itself and sometimes it even catches the slide!!! you will not experience such behavior in real life I guess

I have a problem with the new Logitech G25 wheel. It performs awsome apart from one big thing. The wheel keeps applying the opposite lock by itself and since I hate any artificial help in race simulators it drives me crazy. Does anyone know how to get rid of that annoyance? I use all effects settings on 100% both generic and LFS. I looks like LFS specific problem because with Richard Burns Rally it works ok. Thank you for any suggestions.

MadCatX - yes HVS is on, I get 35-40 regardless of wheteher I play online or offline, alone or with others... Other games are ok.
Thanks for the suggestion.

Thanks guys for the reply. By changing something i mean changes in graphics settings for example. I'll try with oveheating and let you know. Thanks again.