Thanks for the replies.

The way I'm interpretting this then, is that in theory, the only place a car has a right to take a racing line unimpeded is from the natural turn in (umm, wherever that is) to the apex *assuming no other car has an overlap before the turn-in*. So any other time, if changing lanes (including exiting), you shouldn't ever squeeze someone off the edge of the track. But, in reality, people will do this to you, and you're going to have to back off if you don't want contact or to be squeezed off the track.

As for the "green obstacles" (lol) in the chicane, I agree and can't imagine anyone driving fast over something that big in RL, but they are the natural habitat of all the hot-lappers I've seen.

I've read it, but still need clarification on my examples.

Say you're on a straight, tight up against the grass on your left, and heading towards what will eventually be the natural turn in point for the next right-hander. A car slightly ahead and in the middle of the road moves across to take the same line, but because you're slightly faster, by the time it gets there, its rear will clip your front; are you expected to back off, or should he leave room on the outside?

Another one: If you're side-by-side with someone whose on your left through the BL chicane, heading to the last of the 3 apexes, where is the edge of the track?! i.e. does he only need to leave your left wheels within/on(?) the green curb part, or are you entitled to have your right wheels within/on(?) it too?

Demo doesn't have "hotlapping" mode. Does it??

Quote from kaynd :

Can you separate faint oversteer from power oversteer?

Yes, quite right, it's not power oversteer it's momentum.Sorry about that. But it slops around like there's a trailer on the back. And only takes a little bit of throttle when you think you've gathered it in, and it's off again.

Thanks for the setups link. I tried one, and straight away it was faster in the bits I couldn't improve on before. Haven't got it under control yet, but just did a messy 1:34.58. Very odd setup though, front tyres had massive temperature difference between inside and outside of each tyre. Surely too much camber. I actually think maybe those fast times are do-able baring in mind how much later those guys brake. You're definitely on the money about the locked diff though. If you ease off the brake and get straight on the power, it turns you in.

But it also feels in places like I'm disregarding everything I knew about driving. I can't believe I'll get away with something, try it, and it's faster. There's a lack of twitchiness and danger IMO. You can throw it into the first bend and it either understeers or wallows or slides neatly around but it doesn't ever bite you. I can't believe it would be that easy and progressive - like holding the XRG in a powerslide is. Anyone could do it first time in RL if it was that easy. Surely not.

The ISI stuff is almost impossible when it *unexpectedly* lets go, but LFS seems to be the other extreme. Too gradual and smooth in a slide (based on the demo anyway). Perhaps that's some of the problem with XRG: it's sliding but it's so gradual and well behaved I don't even know it's happening!

Hey, Logitekg25, yeah...with your enthusiasm for the H-shifter and name.

LogitekG25 - the clue's in your name!

Anyway, just occurred to me, I haven't got a complete Holapper's set, only the details listed in LFS Replay Analyser. So all those differential settings people are talking about might indeed be making a difference how they behave for me.

Those 'here' links have scrambled my brain cell. Too complicated for me. Although, I did notice myself that softening the front springs and reducing ARB didn't seem to reduce understeer, and gave up and went back to a hotlapper's set ("Sarfa"- 1:33.110) - someone seemed to be saying that...I think.

Just to be clear, the power oversteer problem was with XRG.

logitekg25 (how yer share's doing btw? ), I only tried the sequential to see what difference it made over H-shifter, and will surely return to 'proper driving'..honest! These guys *are* definitely left-foot braking as far as I can see - at the end of a straight braking before they're off the throttle. I always heel-and-toe myself as you can't drive GTL without a blip or you'll swop ends most of the time.

I didn't realise you could do that. It will obviously lockup then. But using either the 'race' setup or a hotlapper's, it would need massive front brake bias to lock the fronts first. Seems odd?

And it still won't 'steer with with the brake' under trail braking as in GTL, RBR, or Netkar pro etc. Experimenting with the XRG, I can't get the front to bite and turn in. Seems fastest to throw it into the first corner. Whereas I like to brake straight then trail brake in. Perhaps I'm too 'safe' due to ISI games. But that's the way they teach it in RL isn't it?

Anyway, got down to 1:34.80 just by using sequential (with stick and clutch pedal) instead of H-shifter. Also just realized I don't know what the fast guys I've seen are doing; they're obviously left foot braking, but no autoclutch. Do they use a button instead of pedal to clutch?

Don't really understand the logic here (which doesn't mean it's wrong). Surely there's a traction budget at each end whether the car is oversteery or understeery (or balanced). If you exceed it, you'll either lose grip at the front or the rear, (or both and four wheel drift). You could even alter it with left-foot braking and throttle. I recognise the XFG allows you to brake fully without locking up so there's a bit of scope for turning in under braking, but if you're turning in that far under braking, I'd have thought something ought to let go somewhere. Apart from anything, it's inefficient braking if you're not on the threshold in a straight line.

But anyway, I've thought of completely different excuse now, so i'll pursue that one a bit and see if it makes me any faster, and then come back and complain about the physics again if that doesn't work.

After struggling to get below 1:35 at Blackwood in XFG (stop laughing!), I downloaded some 1:33.xxx hotlaps and analysed the data in pursuit of an excuse.

I noticed that apart from braking very suddenly (and late) they were holding the brakes full-on and well in towards the apex - and this going downhill too. From driving other sims, I'd have expected that you'd either plough straight on or lose the rear end turning in like that unless you trail braked properly. My body actually rebels against turning in with the brakes full on as it feels so wrong. Surely this isn't realistic?

Also, the XRG, despite having little power, power-over-steers on exit like an AC Cobra in GTL, and then wags it's rear end around like there's an invisible caravan on the back. There isn't is there?