Quote from Tomfuel :

what about your Graphic card ? what is your config please

I've only pushed it this far with my 3080ti. Racing at Blackwood. And the Aero is running with a 3090ti. But that said, I get really good visuals rendering with much more sensible SS on a 1080ti + Reverb G1, still at 90fps.

With the 30x GPUs I've maxed everything in LFS config and added 2xSGSS with insane super-sampling to intentionally push it a bit hard, with rigs for G2 and Aero.

I'm fortunate to have good access to hardware to try quite a few combos of GPU and headset.


To clarify on OpenXR/OpenVR: native support for OpenXT in the future version seems a likely direction if that's where everything goes, no doubt - but what I was getting at is that the OpenXR Toolkit allows one to by-pass SteamVR and apply additional effects with existing OpenVR titles.

It's basically AC (Open VR) >> OpenXR Toolkit >> OpenXR for WMR, on my G2. Getting rid of SteamVR was a good performance increase in its own right, plus allows the other toolkit capabilities to be layered on top.

So perhaps one for the future release, but the Dev of the toolkit "mbucchia" recently commented on a Discord channel (not about LFS but in general) regarding developers that wanted to allow him to enable support for Dynamic Foveated Rendering in the toolkit:

"If they could tag their left/right eye render targets with a debug name (WKPDID_D3DDebugObjectName) then we would be able to tell what eye a render pass is targeted for (when we intercept OMSetRenderTargets()). From their end, it means whenever they allocate the textures they use to render to, they have to make one extra call to SetPrivateData() and use a distinctive name, like "LeftEye" or "RightEye"."

Not sure if LFS does this already but if so, maybe worth talking to him about adding it, with no extra work required by LFS devs - or if not, perhaps a way in future to easily add the support and all those capabilities.

Aside the performance, it would be neat to have a title where - with an eye-tracking headset - one can easily have the focus crosshair overlaid on the monitor view to see where the driver is looking; again good capability to showcase from a driver training perspective.

Quote from Scawen :

Thanks for the information.

Good to hear LFS keeps on working with new headsets, through OpenVR.

I don't have any plans for OpenXR support at this time and I would hold off from such updates as long as possible, while there are so many other things to work on. So I hope OpenVR support keeps going for a long time.

I've been working on a 1000Hz update rate for the physics that allows better time steps between graphical frames so that should help with VR if I can manage to sort out the remaining issues.

I understand, given the priorities it makes sense that it's a backlog task deep down the order of priority, at least until it more FPS in VR are needed!

I put in a few laps at Blackwood tonight with it rendering about 10800x4400 which looks epic. 90FPS solid. With clarity feeling like an HD monitor in VR it makes for a really immersive experience, it really 'sucks you in' - shadows and clarity in the distance (almost no shimmering!), and the clarity in proper mirrors all adds up. It still honestly feels like a benchmark in VR driving 'experience' despite its age.

The tearing / stuttering is the obvious detractor. So I'm excited to see the 1000Hz update, even if that is the only VR oriented update in a good while. It didn't feel as bad in the G2 as the Aero, pretty sure it is but with increased clarity it feels more jarring.

If LFS maintains all it does so well and resolves that issue, with the future graphics update it'll be quite a formidable VR experience - the futures bright!

Quick update on this - no progress with OpenXR on the G2, but I went for a few laps this evening in the Varjo Aero. LFS has never looked so damn good! LFS + Varjo are a really good match, you can max it and really demonstrate the clarity the headset can offer. I've been struggling before today to really get that from it. LFS may have just cost me a fortunate.

I have always been impressed with LFS for really trail-blazing racing sim VR. It's still a 'go-to' when someone (and now my kids) want to experience 'VR racing'. The combination of fun cars and tracks, proper 3D mirrors, presence, and high frame rate seem to make for the most immersive set-up.

In the past month I've been experimenting with combinations of SGSS and MSAA, OpenXR (mostly in Assetto Corsa) and Foveated Rendering to get visuals on the HP Reverb G2 that, for the 20deg sweetspot, rival the Varjo Aero in Assetto Corsa. And importantly will do so at a solid 90FPS.

So my question is whether there are plans to move the VR support forward? Any plans for OpenXR support, and perhaps open the door to eye-tracking? It would be great to see LFS maintain cutting-edge from a VR perspective; OpenXR would be a good step.

And is anyone else tinkering with maximising visual clarity in VR in LFS? Or experimented with HMDs and got tips to share as to how to configure to get the best experience?


I did try OpenComposite today, it launched a couple of times - I noted in the 3D options I now had a bar to set the render resolution, which I've never seen before, and it picked up my OpenXR 150% SS as default - but after crashing it now gives me a 'Headset Tracking not detected' error when launching unless I stick back to 'SteamVR' mode. I'll have a bit more of a play over the weekend.

Quote from Dannyleelee :

This is my first post in about 15 years. Team, just wanted to say thanks for all your amazing work since the LFS project ever began, LFS is responsible for getting me into sim racing and remains to this day a cherished point in time. Brilliant job, all of you.

+1 on this sentiment... I'm sure there are plenty of us lurkers who pop in from time to time. When my kids want to play on the 'driving VR' they want LFS. It's much more accessible to go and hot-lap, and the first game I've managed to get them to learn the brake pedal. My 9yo has even been practicing a bit without auto-clutch, it is becoming inter-generational!

I look forward to when these improvements come through, perhaps consider polling your audience with some ideas on bringing this to GA? Personally I would be happy to pay for offline Open Beta access and test for example. Whilst I much appreciate not being fleeced for additional creative like the mainstream, and recognise you don't want to be driven by consumer demands, if it helps fund ongoing development to ensure continuity then please, monetise us

It doesn't make sense to merge with public release if there is additional overhead, you're already constrained on time, so you should just make us wait - but could be a 'best of both' approach?

My first LFS experience was 0.2 Alpha back in 2002 I think? The same year I got my driving license! I finally got S2 in 2005 and went from there... I haven't played the game much in the last 10 years but more so lately in VR.

I recall getting my first Shifter, then analog clutch; I made an analog handbrake and pretty sure this (and Viper Racing) were the only titles that supported it. Generally this was the title for "cutting edge" functionality. The new tyre physics updates, now more recently VR, keep it relevant.

My kids now have their first memories driving "the Mr Bean car" and learning how to drift... at the age of 9.

I don't see anyone else with the same set-up to just to say, I have been messing around with a new HP Reverb in LFS, and it works very well.

It's pretty awesome seeing Blackwood in such crystal clear Virtual Reality. Like watching a classic in 4K remastered! The only thing I'd say is the shimmering of distant shadows is quite bad. For comparison the same issue affects AC and it's much worse, can't say I really noticed it on the Rift CV1, not sure if it's an OpenVR thing or due to higher resolution and clarity on the Reverb.

Not to detract, but I want to try the Valve Index, whilst the Reverb hits a gold standard - I can see distant detail with the same clarity as a 1080p monitor - but it has other flaws that I'd consider trading for a resolution between CV1 and reverb. Need to spend more time with it.

I'm really please see this! Another "0.1 Alpha" player here who has put only a handful of hours in LFS over the past decade, but still keeps an eye out for the annual update mail.

As a sign of my support - I've just purchased the S3 license... every little helps

I bought a Rift last year and after a turbulent personal life over the past 6 months I finally found the time and inclination to have a 5-lap quick race in the Formula XR @ Blackwood for old times sake. I was never that quick, 1:13s. Anyway... 2 hours later and sweating profusely, I broke the immersion... In the last couple of races I found the balance and dropped into 1:11s.

For me VR is a real game-changer and LFS does it better than any other title, despite being the most dated in capabilities. I can 'feel' the move underneath me, really weird, I can detect and catch the car by feel rather than learned behaviour which takes it to a level that reignites my interest in online racing, and opens up all the RWD cars that I could previously never be bothered with.

Just a thought, if the next 12 months involves the full release of additional S3 content (tracks) and the updated physics model, perhaps it's time to put prices up a few quid? You've ignored inflation for quite a few years !

Oh and if you explore 'wet weather' as an S4 capability I'd buy it in a heartbeat - if it's not in the backlog can you make it a retirement project perhaps?

My 'racing game' portfolio in 2003 consisted of Viper Racing, Need for Speed Porsche Unleashed, Grand Prix 2. I tried Grand Prix Legends which was too damn hard. I had one of the early Microsoft Sidewynder FFB wheels to race with.

Then out came the LFS 01A Beta. It was fantastic and moved the goalpoasts from 'game' to 'sim'. I bought the ACT Labs ForceRS, 'Performance Pedals' with clutch and H-shifter. I remember practicing clutch control in anticipation of my first driving lesson on Viper Racing!

I have always kept an eye on LFS development and felt rather sad that S3 never came to be. I licensed S1 in 2005 and S2 as soon as it came out, but lost interest in racing sims in general as life got busy and I got more of a fix tinkering with real cars. Since then I've built a career, started my own business, bought a house and refurbished most of it, got married and had 3 kids! The ACT-Labs collected dust all that time... until Christmas break.

I see the poor wheel coated in dust in the attic. My oldest boy is 5 and I thought he might like to see Daddy's old toy... his eyes lit up as it come down with the Christmas decorations. I plugged it in, all came to life but the limp pedals weren't returning properly. A few trips to the garage and I managed to get the springs bodged. Then there were no Win7 drivers for the wheel... after some searching I found a copy of some modded drivers that work. Awesome!

Naturally I had to set up LFS on my office desktop. My 5yr old loved picking a car and circuit and 'practicing his driving' - he's really getting the hang of it. I do the pedals but he is learning to use paddle shifters with auto-clutch! My 4yr old is also keen and has a natural knack of catching slides, time to get him karting! Or perhaps not - he tends to just mow down cones most of the time.

Now the problem is I'm getting a bit addicted. I bought a copy of Assetto Corsa and without starting any debate, it is an incredible Sim with a level of realism that really got my attention. But I just can't quite get into it due to the limitations of my 270deg wheel, the cars feel great until you overstep it a bit and then it's in a wall. Back to LFS - I really enjoyed starting to have a play with some of the S2 cars and tracks! The RWD cars that I found too hard to drive fast 10 years ago are suddenly driveable - which suggests my real-world experience counts for something. It seemed to work a lot better with my wheel too, with its limited lock - I could still catch the car and rescue it when over-driven or the back kicked out.

LFS is a step behind AC both visually and 'feel', but it has its own charm - the kids will only play LFS - and the more I explore it the better it feels. I like the cars & track choice; for 'real-life' experience there are other titles with huge development resources but LFS offers something a little unique. I'd compare LFS to karting (accessible & casual) where as AC is more like a trackday (need to be in the right zone). It is incredible what has been achieved by 3 guys, and quite frankly if they release a modest update this year and give it an 'S3' stamp then I will happily pay for it! I'm quite surprised they didn't stop a few years back to be honest and deserve much kudos for keeping with it.

So where now? I really want to get a better wheel set-up. If I can find my USB adapter to run the ACT-Labs pedals and shifter separately I want to pair it with a £2-300 wheel. I think AC would come into its own and I'll get the best of of LFS too. The T300 looks pretty good - any experiences of this? This would eventually be the kids... if I really get into sim racing I'll kit out with a Fanatec or Accuforce. I'm also intrigued by the Oculus Rift support and would consider a DK2 as well, just not convinced - would love to demo on and see for myself!

Anyway enough rambling, I hope to get a more enjoyable set-up very soon and see you on an LFS server for some hotlapping soon...

I haven't played LFS in years... literally! I haven't even driven all the cars in S2. However I was thinking about this the other day, installed MungoGamer on my iPhone and PC, set up an Adhoc WiFi from the laptop and voila! Virtual wheel installed and I'm racing the RB4 round Aston using my iPhone 5 mins later.

You can use the tilt for accel/brake although I prefer to use 'thumb sliders', phone as the wheel, with a + / - button above each "pedal" for gears.

Awesome use of technology, it'll take a bit of getting used to - and not for serious racing - but it's got me back into a bit of LFS... just waiting for the new tyre physics to come out and tempt me into buying a new Wheel. Hopefully the Devs can sort that out before Christmas so I know what to put on my list

Updates! This is the first time in ages I've come onto the forum. I used to race alot in the 0.1a alpha days - I was still in school then. Things were always moving, as has been said there was a respect out on track.

I was never competitive, but put in hours around blackwood and frequented the drift servers from time to time. At the moment I don't have time or the place to play, but I've dusted down my old ACT Labs setup for the day S3 gets released, should it ever come.

OK had a quick look at the vid. That turbo seems to have minimal lag, and seems like a rather small car, so I'd assume it's a small ball-bearing job that spools very quickly at low rpms (ie, with little flow). And 10psi isn't a huge amount of pressure. I haven't really paid attention yet, but I'm sure my turbo spools to about 5 or so psi on free-revving. Point I'm getting at is that's much less than peak boost, which for me is 22psi.

After some thinking, this is the conclusion I've come to now.. feel free to add comments, rip my comments apart etc or tell me where I'm wrong

It's the difference in pressure, that is the primary reason for the turbo to be spooling. The flow has to make a difference, or else porting a turbo or changing A/R ratio's wouldn't make a difference (it quite obviously does). I think it's kinda like holding a vacuum cleaner hose in front of your little desk fan, it starts spinning wildly - the pressure difference on either side of the blades causes them to turn. Of course, in the engine, a bunch of gases at the same temp wouldn't do much. Heat these to 1000degs and there's a huge increase in pressure; of course the faster the turbine spins the quicker pressure is trying to equillise, so you need lots of gases to replace those that are 'escaping' - hence the need for higher revs (and more burnt fuel) to sustain higher boost levels.. you can double the flow without increasing the pressure. it's all inter-related. I'm clueless about pulsing so can't comment, but physics is really wierd so it doen't surprise me!

I don't think it's as much a case of who's correct with what hypothesis, as it is to them all being linked - without the heat, there wouldn't be the extreme pressure difference. This causes the airflow through the turbine which causes it to spin, much like airflow through a prop makes it spin (or like puting a cd on a table and blowing across it makes it lift, just to confuse things ). Which is why variable trim turbines are effective; they are angled for optimum spool-up time (ie, by changing the angle they require less flow to turn) and then once spinning change trim level in order to be more effective at higher RPMS. I think Porsche play with that stuff.

Disclaimer - this is just a bunch of my crazy thoughts and I could be entirely wrong.

So, to bring this to LFS relevance - it's all very complex, nobody would ever quite agree so it's best to make a simpler turbo model. However, it does need some improvement as LFS turbo's behave really wierd.

Cheers
Ross

Last edited by Ross Burton, Tue, 28 Feb 2006 15:46.

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

This is a common misconception. The kinetic energy of the exhaust gases impacting the turbine side is almost negligable compared to the main principle by which turbochargers operate.... It's primarily the expansion of high heat, high pressure gases that drive the turbine. It's not like blowing on my sons shiny air fan thingy that you wave in the wind. Turbine housings are specially engineered to harness the energy of expanding gases. The greater the differential in pressure between the inlet and outlet side of the turbine, the more energy is dumped into the turbine itself. You can spool up a turbocharger bigtime on a bench with a blowtorch, due to the heat.... far more than you can with a hairdryer, even though the hairdryer "moves" more air. This is why with a turbocharged car wants a very large free flowing exhaust system, whereas a NA car benfits most from a properly tuned system, not necessarily a larger diameter system. The larger diameter on the exit side of a turbocharger's turbine makes the pressure differential between the inlet and outlet side larger, and spool times are quicker etc. There is plenty of information available on this topic if you dig, and it's a REALLY common misconception of the the fundamental physics of turbochargers.



Did you check the video I posted? hehehe

I do however agree that of couse the dynamics of the system can change dramatically with different turbos / sizes / engines etc, however things just are off in LFS. I can't imagine for the life of me a car behaving like the RA, speaking in terms of the boost delivery... it's unreal, can you imagine trying to pass someone on the highway in that thing? By the time you've got boost you're finished your pass!

Hmm, thanks for the info - expected a reply along those lines I wasn't trying to imply it's the kinetic energy in the exhaust gases, but in all honesty I wasn't sure; my understanding is very basic and I understand it to be rather like an aerofoil - it is the difference in pressure that causes the movement; makes sense that this is not just an effect of gases flowing over the compressor wheel like an airplane wing, but caused by a massive pressure increase on the exhaust side due to the mahoosive temps reached. Also explains how the wheel can "stall" (not fun). I almost wish I'd studied fluid mechanics now. I can't watch that vid but will post when I can later. Don't seem to have access @ work... without watching, sure the car isnt fitted with an anti-lag system? There is simply no way idle can give large amounts of boost without some assistance or a very small turbo.. just not enough energy avaliable. Could try flooring it and keeping the throttle buried of course, but I doubt the engine would last too long like that! there's a reason dyno's are braked

A very informative post though, in fact you've answered a puzzling question to me - I recently had a 3" decatted exhaust fitted with a removed centre box and vent-to-atmosphere WG pipe, it made a HUGE difference to low-end performance and reduced turbo lag. Now it makes complete sense

G2G, work to do before the shift ends-

Cheers
Ross

PS any links for reading on this topic much appreciated All this turbo-talk gets me excited illepall

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

What you posted is mostly good I think, and provides a good background for this thread... However this last statement requires reproof... Given all the variables that you stated it's not necesarily true. All the required to build boost is heat - which one COULD argue that load helps create I suppose... But load in the engine isn't inherantly required! In fact, I can pull up a video of a car reaching over 10lbs just by revving. That SRT-4 I rode in could almost do this as well.

I'll be back shortly to post that video.

Also, could you clarify what you meant by crescendo in terms of the building up of boost pressure, cause that could go either way (< or >), but only one way is true in my mind.... The biggest point I've been TRYING to make is the fact that boost creates heat which creates more boost which creates more heat etc etc etc, thus there IS a crescendo which increases the speed at which boost builds, the more boost there is the faster it builds! That is exactly WHY we need a wastegate in the first place, boost does not taper itself off!

Hi! Yeah, I meant crescendo in terms of building boost not diminishing boost. 100% agree that a wastegate is needed

I'm not sure what you mean when you say that all you need is heat to run a turbocharger.... it's the exhaust gases turning the turbine that cause spooling, and this effect is gonna happen regardless of their temperature. Of course, more heat = higher pressure = faster spooling is that's what your getting at. And yes, you're gonna generate alot more heat with all that extra fuel burning in the engine.

As per the car giving boost when free-revving, the SR4 has a diddy little turbo I imagine; of course a small turbo will build more boost free-revving as it takes less to spin it. My K24 isn't exactly large, and it's old-skool (ie, no ball-bearing job) which doesn't help . To spool the turbo to max. pressure the engine needs to be under load, or else you simply can't burn enough fuel in it to create enough exhaust gases to spin the turbo fast enough. And you'd really quickly get shedloads of heatsoak if you could...

Cheers
Ross

Cheers... looks like I better get my credit card out again

Still, some offline racing and I should get up to speed pretty soon. Is it still just as easy to go find a race, or is it best to eventually find some teams or private servers? Just want to avoid the muppets who like to drive backwards.

Hi guys,

It's been a while. I've finally got round sorting out a PC... I've been too distracted with my 'real life' car, but I'm a few months away from having all the parts for my latest project, so, i think it's time to blow the dust off my wheel and get this thing cranked up!

Right now I'm S1 registered - I planned on staying that way until I'm 'safe' enough for some online racing.. is this the best way to go, or should I just get S2 registered and throw myself in the deep end?

Just interested to know if there's a significant difference in the two. The last tim i ever did some serious racing was at the Alpha Test Demo stage, back in '02... illepall

Cheers
Ross

Wow it's been a while since I've been on here... enoyed reading the thread. In my experience, a turbo should spool up rather quickly once you're into it's working rev-range. Obviously that is dependant upon the turbo used, and how the ECU is mapped. It's a bit weak, but I have a vid that I used recently when diagnosing where I was losing boost:

http://www.rossburton.com/castlecoombe/Boostleak.MOV

you can only really see the boosguage at the beginning (hard to hold the camera steady and drive at the same time!) but what you'll notice, is that on idle it sits about -0.5, and as soon as I get above about 2200 rpm the boost climbs steadliy. The fact it holds at about .8bar for a few secs is not normal, that was the problem i was trying to fix, but you'll then see it suddenly climb up to 1.5bar (max). This then starts bleeding off at about 5000 rpm to 1bar @ approx. 7000rpm, but I don't see that too often as that'd be breaking the speedlimit even in 2nd

If anyone is interested, I'm sure I could get some footage of boost characteristics, but I think the point is seen that once the car is up in the revs, the boost should climb quite rapidly to max boost. In fact, the turbo would continue to build boost until it died were it not for the wastegate frequency valve that electronically limits boost (if it's not ecu controlled, then the tightness of the spring in the wastegate will limit boost).

cheers
Ross