http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v= ... 1ktfg&feature=related

Damn,the last time i can remember such a crazy steering it was with the first RF cars.I won t call what i see a sim,hope it is better IRL.

Why should we have respect towards Iracing devs about the NDA after what they did to the modding community?

It isn t our business...

The NDA is only here to cover the fake sim-revolution hyped by Iracing since years.

Quote from tristancliffe :

It's not a wing, but a spoiler, and was designed to keep the flow attached further along the car, thus reducing lift at the rear (relative to the front).

Sorry in our country a spoiler means something else.

I agree with your answer but that s pure logic,my point was more about the size from the wing and how it can affect so much the car even more since it is only a road car.

Nice thread,very interesting to read.

About the downforce on normal cars,i wonder if someone can remember the problem of the first AudiTT version.

Audi corrected that with a really small wing and it worked well.

Then i assume it should be usefull on some bad designed cars?But it is such a small wing,i can t understand how it could resolve the complete problem.I will google this a bit and see if they are some good stuff to read about that.

Quote from Fischfix :

the good thing in the rFactor scene is you can play other games and nobody is writing: "wtf why are you playing this crap". i only get this feeling here... and this is the most thing that pisses me off, especially on this forum. the closed-mindedness. you can argue about rFactor that they don't have a community like here in lfs where everyone meets up in this forum. but to be honest, there are about 25 people in this forum who predefine which opinion should count and argue with knifes and scissors down everyone who is against that opinion (e.g. helmets, driving aids, other games, ovals, development, changes, improvements, ...)

sure both games have advantages and disadvantages but in the end its everyones decision if he likes variety (with all its advantages and disadvantages) or developer-guided development (with all its advantages and disadvantages)


for me i am at the moment more interested in rFactor because it offers more the stuff i like, but as soon as lfs brings out new stuff i am surely back to give it a try. i am also here for quick pickup-races when in rFactor no mod i am interested in is running. but thats the good thing with personal freedom: you can choose what you like, where you like and when you like....

Need to agree.

Quote from Leprekaun :

I follow F1 . Don't start being a smart-ass with me.

If you what your saying is true, then how come Hamilton is able to out perform Alonso on a number of occasions? since you tell me I don't follow F1, how come Hamilton stated that he was able to do his qualifying lap at Hungary on the super soft while Alonso felt more comfortable with going with the soft prime? Sure, each driver has their own driving style but if Alonso gave Hamilton his setups, it would make more sense that Alonso would be able to maximise the car better than Hamilton.

Oh and so you know that I didn't get that info from thin air like you claiming that Alonso gave Hamilton his car setups, heres where I found the piece of info on the tyre choice in qualifying at Hungary

"It was intriguing that Lewis Hamilton could get his super-soft Bridgestone option tyres to last a complete lap in qualifying, and that Fernando Alonso preferred to rely on the soft prime tyre, which he felt was rather more durable for his distinctive driving style."

I got this info here

You can believe what you want,i don t have the time and need to go in a long discussion with you about it.

Don t forget to erase your little story about Alonso then......(i m sure you understood)

Quote from Leprekaun :

@Ghostracer: How'd you know Hamilton used Alonso's setups? . You're a Mclaren mechanic, are ya?

I just follow F1,it s not hard,you should try maybe before you begin to talk about it.

Quote from Alan Dove :

all he has learnt with Alonso beside him is that to win 2x WDC you don't actually have to be that good

Yeah surethat s why he used Alonso setups at many races before Alonso stopped to help him.

I don t really liked Alonso but since Hamilton is here,i really changed my mind.

This stuff is sad,happens every day in my country

Quote from h3adbang3r :

An rTracktor crash that turned a race track into a scrapyard (I couldn't stop laughing at this!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v ... w%2Ecfm%3Fv%3Dbret5V85QvQ

This vid was only done to show the damage for the future pcc 2007 mod.

Quote from BuddhaBing :

He doesn't post very often but when he does it's usually in the GTR2 forums. The only time I've seen him post in the rFactor forums were in a thread cross-posted to several places where he asked painters to submit designs for his team's 2007 paint scheme.

He is actually betatester for the LMS and FIA GT3 mod for RF.

Quote from The Very End :

What s the problem with that,most of the real racedrivers i now are involved in betatesting for the next Rfactor mods.

And please don t begin with the stupid talk about one sim being better then another one,play what you like that s all.

Quote from BullHorn :

Did he mention with sims he plays?

Rfactor.

Quote from jtw62074 :

Calspan has a flat belt tester. I'm not sure if they have a drum tester (why bother drum testing when you have a belt?) so this might be proper data after all. Looks like I might need to eat my foot here

Does this mean,the old stuff i learned and the feeling i got with a real car was right?A tyre will not react linear and the droppoff is always here to a certain degree?

Quote from Shotglass :

Hast du schonmal bei einem Dreher gemerkt, dass das Auto vom Gegenlenken sich _schneller_ statt langsamer dreht?

if you mean a moment who you could catch the slide with countersteering?
Yes,but it s a uncommon question since it s pretty logical just because of the weight transfer.Maybe it s no the explaination but it s only my feeling in this case.

But i m happy with Jtbo s post and most of all (you,BBT,jw..)others who posted here.It really brings me too change old certitudes i had bout this.

Quote from Shotglass :

ill second everything jtbo said

also ponder this ... have you ever experienced that countersteering accelerated the turning motion of your spin instead of slowing it down ?

Jtbo s explaind it very well for a english language noob like me but sorry Shotglass i can t understand the sense of your question even with translator

Could you maybe say it in german,would be a lot easier for me.

Quote from Shotglass :

i doubt it because if those guys had actually spent a second thinking about what those curves would mean for car handling (especially countersteering) they would never have put them into their books
which goes to show how much or rather little they must know about physics

But you can t disagree that there is always a moment with a dropoff in the curves,i can t imagine a car who would be catchable in all situations(angle).

I m pretty sure that is the point they try to explain with the sudden dropoff.
You are going sideways at 30deg,then 40..........and more and more and poufff,you lost the ass(that is what i mean with violent griploose).Can you really say it doesn t happend to you one time.

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

If your first paragraph was true, then steering wouldn't do anything to correct the car anyway (Just like when I play GTR2! Whee!)

And yes, the "old stuff" is wrong - it's a myth that just won't die.

Steering works actually because you are not at the point who you don t have anymore grip at the rear tyres,You just loose the complet grip if you are really to fast.I never said the grip is over instantly but it s not a linear feeling.

I m trying to change my mind about it but i need facts or a few links about the subject to help me to believe.

Most of todd wasson posts are really interesting but what he said doen t sound like shotglass interpretation about grip.But i only was a simple mechanic and i wouldn t be surprised if shotglass or BBT are cars enginneer since the posts they made about that are very detailled and smart.

Would be nice to now what is Scawen view about this.

Quote from Shotglass :

your grip drops off ie you wont get more grip by increasing the speed anymore which is what many describe as losing grip
truth is however you dont lose grip and your car will resist the rotation jsut as much as it did before you "lost" grip

But the car only resist the rotation because of the drivers (counter) steering in such a case not because they have the same sort of grip.

Sorry if i don t understand well your point but i tried and thinks it s a bit "wrong" after all what i learned about the subject in school (long time ago and maybe they discovered new stuff).If it s really like you said,then all the old things about this was wrong??

Quote from Shotglass :

for about the 1000th time in this theatre ... tyres DONT lose grip when youre sideways

Aheeemmmm,maybe you could explain then why you are going sydeways if you don t loose grip.Sorry but you made such a crazy statement that i wonder if it s yours.I m pretty sure it s not.

Maybe it isn t the appropriate term but then most of the race drivers and race instructors are wrong.

i was car mechanic and we all said it an learned it like this.

Quote from wheel4hummer :

Limit? What limit?

Sorry,with my bad english its hard to explain it well.

With limit, i mean the moment who s the car begins to loose the grip.

After the limit for me,you are no more competitive because you are asking to much from the tyres and they can t do it without loosing grip.

Hope it was explained a bit better.

Quote :

But i do agree that we lack some of those sudden uncontrollable spins you see in real life

Exactly what i mean with my post,it s a wrong statement to think the car will always react linear and gently after the "grip limit "

Quote :

has it occured to you that the problem might be you being a lot less smooth in real life rather than the sims physics ?

Actually,i m way smoother IRL because you need it to stay alive at fast speeds.The reality is more violent if you don t drive perfectly smooth and precise,the same could be tell for drifting a car.

Sad, i can t talk really well english because most of you have really good points about the subject and it would be nice to talk about it without the feel to not understand all.

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

Please explain why a car would not act gently over the limit. It's not a train, and there are no tracks to fall off of. What is it in your mind that generates a large transient blast that sends you off into the distance with little or no warning? I don't comprehend this point of view, except by those who've been wrongly "trained" by ISI bs (not saying this is you BTW, just that the myth of rapidly declining lateral slip curves irritates me - as it goes against even simple common sense)

If you're cornering, the car obviously wants to continue in a straight line. Of course, you're asking it not to through steering input, and all the tires are responsible for coaxing the car to change direction. If you slowly approach the limits of the tire's adhesion, which happens to already be under a relatively "high slip condition", what on Earth makes anyone think they will "suddenly break loose"? They will simply begin to slip a little more, and provide slightly less adhesion because they are a little past their peak slip angle.

Sorry,we had this discussion before but IMO deggis pointed very well LFS biggest problem.

I had a few little nice cars(R5GTT,Mk1,Benz 190 Evo2) and in no way one of this cars got such a linear reaction above limit.I crashed one time the benz just because i got a sudden violent break loose even if most of the time it was really easy to drift with but in no way such gently(really never).

But most of the times it was done on the normal road and i just had the possibility to try a few times a real race track (Nords but only with benz) with better tyres but even in this case,they doesn t react linear and gently.

I can t imagine it s just the lack of G-force because they are sims who reproduce a bit better this feeling,not perfectly but better.

I only talk about the roadcars and can t comment about the openwheelers but i m sure Tristan could tell how they fell in LFS compared to reallife behaviour.

The main problem is this bit ice feeling at normal speeds and the really linear and not violent reaction of the car above the limit.With improvement in this area,LFS could be near to the perfection.

Maybe it s intentionnal from Scawen because of the big under 18 drifter community who i m sure couldn t drift so easily if it was like IRL but i don t think so since i m sure Scawen try to give us the best simulator.

I agree with your POV Ball Bearing Turbo.

And my point wasn t to bash LFS since i think it s really good at most aspects.

I just hoped that most of the drifter kids in LFS doesn t think the reality is like LFS because like i said sooner,the reality is way more brutal (can t explain it very better because of my bad english but most of the real allday drivers will understand my point).

Quote from Shotglass :

use a g25 at 900° and see if it is still as easy to drift in lfs

OMG,you know what,my wheel is a G25 and i use the 900° with streetcars in all sims but you have your opinion,i have mine.The only thing who is really hard with drifting in LFS is the FF lol.

Like i said,the day who the cars will go so easy sideways IRL,you will see thirteen years old kids drifting in all turns from your city.

Please do the testing,take your car IRL,drive with 100/120km and at the first turn bring it sideways like in LFS.I m sure most of you will never write again on this forum.Not because it s too hard,it s just because most of you seems to imagine wrong stuff about a car behaviour IRL.

Quote from Speed Soro :

It is obvious that a topic entitled like this topic would fell down in the old and wasted discussion "My Sim is better than your Sim".

Again? That is comedy.. very funny

+1

Richards point about the too easy catching is true.I think most of you should learn to drift a car IRL before talking on this forum.

Just think why the most drifters in LFS are kids..........They all will have big surprise when they will understand how brutal a car reacts IRL when you are drifting.

Not really hard but far from easy with a normal 200ps car.

But i let you alone in your little simwar since the only community who acts like these are from LFS and that s why most of the simmers don t want to hear one word about LFS,because of the childish community.