Realism is the shit!

To be honest it feels like most of the car-types are already represented, although it seems (maybe I'm completely wrong here) that the more easy to drive cars (low weight, well balanced, fairly low power) get the most "appreciation" (track-time). So here is my list even though I have no idea of any of these would fit above concept:

• Lotus Elise
  
• Mazda Miata
  
• Ariel Atom (maybe a bit too much power)
  
• Honda Beat (Mini MR with bike engine)
  
• Light car with motorcycle engine (sorry, can't think of any)

A source of "cheap" PR could be if LFS claimed to be the first ever environmental conscious racing-sim to promote "green" values to the "kids". In other words introduce green cars like Hybrids (Honda Insight, Toyota Prius etc), along with other PR tricks like donations to green organisations, supply low energy buld with each licence, have fuel saving race (teach green driving) games etc. Imagination sets the limit.

Another concept that could make LFS expand customer groups is classics and vintage cars. No preference from my part.

Since I'm a big Honda fan I of course would like to see a Honda-model in the game. My favourites:

• Civic/CRX 88-91 reason: It's light, low and fairly wide and have double-wishbone suspension (My track-day car is a Civic VT-91)
  
• Civic 92-95 Reason: same as above
  
• S2000 reason: basicly same reason as above but a very well-balanced FR with 240hp 9000rpm engine
  
• Integra Type R reason: has been voted the best handling FF car ever many times.
  
• Accord Type R reason: probably one of the most hardcore sedans ever
  
• NSX reason: would be badass with a proper MR car in LFS
  
• S800 reason: A classic with 9000rpm bike engine

Quote from bbman :

Have you tried it? Off power such a setup understeers like crazy, that's why you see people always applying a little bit of throttle to negate the understeer...

Yep, I've tried it many times since I use the inferno setups. I've tried to make a own set several times but since the normal suspension logic has not been able to apply (if you want to be fast) I have always ended up with the inferno power oversteer set-up and on the same time altering my racing technique compared to RL and non power oversteer setups.

Quote from bbman :

Chassis flex would make such a setup even harder to make in RL, as it would twist and both front tires would still be on the ground, giving horrendous understeer, so you'd have to go even more mental than in LfS... Maybe it would be faster, but due to the excess stress such a setup would put on the cars it'll be likely to break something after a short time...

I completely agree that chassi flex play an important role in the complete suspension setup, although having both front wheels in the ground would actually give you more front grip (less understeer) if you have a mild/medium LSD. I can't say how it would react with locked diff since I have only tried that on ice.

Actually, it's really easy to create. Take the XFG or FXO (I have not tried the other FWD) and make the rear dirt sloppy and the front crazy stiff and you will get power oversteer. Check it out on the autocross/skidpad, very amusing.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the physics is wrong in this game and taking this "opportunity" away for FF-cars would make them less fun to drive. I'm just saying that I don't believe it's realistic since to my knowledge this setup technique has never been used, and even if it has it has not "prevailed" among FF-racing teams. Also I have to say that it's bugs the hell out of me to drive the complete opposite way than compared to my track-day Civic IRL. I believe everyone who has done FF-racing IRL has been fighting to learn the same racing technique, which is to counter understeer with keeping the weight on the front wheels (engine breaking and normal breaking) and in the case of ass breaking out, shifting weight to rear (give slight/mild gas). With this kind of power oversteer it's the complete opposite technique, and to make it even more odd, this set-up and racing technique is by far the quickest in LFS.

Would be great if someone with more FF racing/suspension knowledge could shed some light on this.

Thanks Bob, I think I understand the theory now with the power oversteer with locked diff.

Hmm...but I have to say that I feel that the understeer with this kind of setup (stiff front and soft rear) in corner entry (without power) is not very evident. Sometimes it even feels neutral, which I definately don't think it would.

Another thing which I believe is questionable is if a car with this kind of setup (stiff front lifting inner wheel and soft rear + locked diff) actually would be faster (IRL) than a mild LSD and opposite setup with both front wheels planted in the ground (on a racetrack)?

Thanks for the helping me understand the power oversteering logic, and even if it's not realistic it's much more fun to drive FWD with it

And on the same time the general FWD power oversteer could be investigated as well.


Thread on the subject:
http://www.lfsforum.net/showth ... highlight=power+oversteer

Quote from AndroidXP :

"Take as example differential locking and anti-roll. For FWD cars it is often said that a locked diff will greatly hamper turn-in (which it does) and high front ARB will cause understeer (which it does). Then why do so many WR setups use exactly these settings? Because if you combine both you will get a setup that 1) lifts the inner wheel into the air when turning because of the stiff front ARB, and 2) is able to apply full power to the outer wheel due to the locked diff, which at the same time loses its understeer tendency because the inner wheel is off the ground, thus not resisting turning any more. So you combine two settings that should cause massive understeer yet result in the opposite, the infamous power-oversteer in FWD cars.

I'm really sorry if I'm a pain... but I don't get this!

Applying power to the front wheels which are already at the maximum grip threshold would give you more understeer. Even if you have grip to spare applying power would give you a weight transfer to the rear and give you more rear grip.

I always thought (and have some Civic VT-91 track-day car tuning experience as well) the trick to make less understeer with a FWD is:

Harder rear springs and ARBs
Damping set to "keep" weight transfer to the front wheels (more front rebound and less bump, less rear rebound and more bump)
And of course tire pressure and camber/caster to match above as well as ride height (raise rear will give you less understeer).

But this "infamous power-oversteer in FWD cars" I never heard about (IRL) but I do ofcourse experience this in LFS.

Would be greatly appreciated if someone could enlighten me.