Just, WOW..

So much detail, very interesting to read. Thank you, Scawen, for this insight in to game development and LFS.
Very humbling to read how much you can get done in a day, I'm no coder, by I did try to learn some python. Just getting a few simple lines of code to work took hours, creating my first very simple app took days. And then it would not work properly..

I hope you don't mind me opening a thread about your locked thread, you didnt lock it for no reason, but I think there are some knowligable people on here that might give some cool insights on the stuff you posted.

And to the community, I was wondering if we could chip in together and give Scawen an modern pc Seeing as he is still on some old duo core system with a 60 hz monitor


Great read, specially since now I spend way to much on iracing just so I can race in VR. (The grapics being tied to the physics background stutter thing maybe me choose iracing over getting back in to LFS when I got a VR HMD)

I absolutely agree, some people had doubts that the development on the LFS is in an active phase. This thread proves it. I read them all as soon as they come out, and looking forward to the next, although I don't understand everything there. Such threads are very necessary not only to show the current development progress, but also to keep people on their toes about the upcoming update and so that they don't forget about it and stay and monitor about the LFS.

Unfortunately, even so, some people use such threads to express their dissatisfaction and complains. Although it's obviously out of place there. Some do not understand that they can make their own thread in the off-topic section of the forum and communicate there with those who need it. Therefore, developers have to make these threads closed.

I am grateful to the developers for their work and writing progress posts about it, it's a bit sad that only 2 people are working on the game. But as we say in Russia - you go slower - you'll go further.

Quote from auch_enne :

And to the community, I was wondering if we could chip in together and give Scawen an modern pc Seeing as he is still on some old duo core system with a 60 hz monitor

On the other hand, it acts as a benchmark for Scawen - if LFS runs reasonably smooth on his PC, then it’s most likely well optimised for the community as well.

Very, very interesting to read Scawen, for those of us interested in the technical detail.

Please do continue.

Also would be nice to hear something about Eric and his track development

I gotta agree that continuous work log is interesting to look at.

The progress report thread is closed for a described reason. If you now discuss about it here, it very likely turns into the very same result of the reports before and Scawen might stop it again.
I know it has good intention here, but that won't help some guys.

Quote from auch_enne :

And to the community, I was wondering if we could chip in together and give Scawen an modern pc Seeing as he is still on some old duo core system with a 60 hz monitor

Quote from Flame CZE :

On the other hand, it acts as a benchmark for Scawen - if LFS runs reasonably smooth on his PC, then it’s most likely well optimised for the community as well.

I have missed that, where can we see Scawen's PC specs

Quote from superlame :

I have missed that, where can we see Scawen's PC specs

Post #5, paragraph 3. Not the full specs, but "my computer is so old it only has two cores".

Mens still hoping game will run on their 2003 pentinum

Quote from Viperakecske :

Mens still hoping game will run on their 2003 pentinum

go wr gabor, my pentium from 2016

What surprised me was he was worried about some 30mb being moved on an harddisk. What is a harddisk? Is that, that clicky noisy heavy box from the past, which is used today to mostly store backups? Or the large games you don't play? Large as in, over 50gb.

He needs a modern PC and to try a modern game to have a different perspective from mid 2000's that currently seems to be engraved in his mind. Someone who can't buy a PC better than that won't be able to buy LFS either.

And you could test how optimized it is on a high end PC. You don't need to develop it on an ancient artifact to have an optimized code. Plus, HDD's are extremely slow. Add up a few seconds of waiting everytime you move something. This would add up to hours in a short time. Even SSD's feel slow nowadays when you move bigger files, compared to NVME's.

If people are surprised about the daily logs, it shows me that they don't even know how game development works. You stitch up everything knot by knot. And the knots you stitch somewhere else may mess up the previous knots you already made.

That also makes it clear why people are suggesting "improvements" that are actually their personal taste, like "My favorite app doesn't work after the update. Now I want it in the current version." The app that is probably used by less than ~10% of the players.

That will at least make people realize that it is a bit harder than they think.

You don't know what are their objectives in terms of game scope, target demographic, target hardware, etc.
LFS doesn't aim to be the shiniest on the market, nor it will ever be. It's a niche product, that the devs try to maintain and evolve with their own resources, without entering a tech race that is lost in advance and quite useless for the game scope and objective. They aren't EA DICE or Epic Games.
If a game like GTA V can runs without too much hassle on the 5400 RPM HDD of the PS4, LFS, even with the new higher resolutions tracks and without any dynamic streaming system can easily live without SSD requirement. What's the point of requiring higher minimum specs if you don't exploit them ? You'll only loose part of your player base for no added value on your product.

@Scawen: Those dev logs are really cool I really enjoy it, thank you and keep it up I wouldn't mind removing the "per day diary" and instead have a weekly resume of the development instead, sometimes I feel like we are monitoring you on your personal life

Quote from nexttime :

What surprised me was he was worried about some 30mb being moved on an harddisk.

That seems oddly specifique. I searched for "30 MB" to see what it was about and found this:

Quote :

This is about people hacking their .eng file, to contain far larger wavs than the limit that LFS allows, and that wav file being music rather than an actual engine sound. Then going online and selecting that hacked mod, forcing others to download that 30 MB mod and busting their eardrums with extremely loud music.

So it was not about hardware requirements at all.
---

To me it is always interesting to read about game development. LFS or other games. Sometimes I would do things different, but I mostly do silly 2D games so what do I know. Also if everyone did everything the same way it would be boring and there would be no need to write or read such reports.

Quote from nacim :

blabla

Uninteresting flaming & has nothing to do with what I said. nexttime understand what you read, and then try to provoke. If you claim to have understood what I said, point out specifically where I said "LFS should aim to be the shiniest".

Quote from Gutholz :

That seems oddly specifique. I searched for "30 MB" to see what it was about and found this:
So it was not about hardware requirements at all.

"Did that mod with edited wheel values actually cause disruption, sore ears, excessive HDD usage when used online?"

I am not about the mod argument, but just the arguments like this gives the impression that he is using some legacy system and has wrong perspective on what most people have. The opposite of when you got a hammer every problem is a nail.

I have to admit I got part of your point wrong and got unnecessary frustrated about it, sorry about that, I'll edit some of it out.

Though I still stand to my point that looking for older hardware when it's still relevant (like HDD and low bandwidth connections in this case) is still necessary, even if you use newer hardware for ease of development.
You personally feel like every one got a SSD now, I don't. A lot of people don't have access to SSD and use some crappy 5400 RPM 2.5" HDD to play, and so far nothing really justify the game asking for SSD as a requirement, especially not big engine files included in mods.

Something I suggested some time ago that could clear this debate easily is having analytics. Just having LFS send the DXDiag when sending the master server request (if the player consents) for example is light and would allow Scawen to truly see the specs of the currently active player base, and have a better idea of what is worth chasing and what is not.

Thanks, I do have an SSD and a very fast, quiet computer that I am in no mood to update at the moment when everything is going well. I don't mean 'fast' like an up to date PC but it boots up faster than any computer I have seen, opens programs in fractions of a second and compiles my code very quickly. It's one that Victor built for me several years ago and I have upgraded the SSD, OS, RAM and graphics card (a few times). It's relatively quiet as the CPU has a passive heat sink (no fan).

So, nexttime, there's not really a need to suggest I am some kind of an idiot not to put a lot of money and time into a super duper new PC with the latest shit operating system that keeps updating itself for no reason and loads of noisy fans. I'm happy with the computer set up that I have, which is the very reason that I have it.

Like a person who loves motorbikes and has a 600cc machine. It can do 250 km/h so there's really no need to suggest he is foolish for not buying a 1000cc monster. Maybe the motorcycle enthusiast just wants to ride his bike and isn't trying to win the TT?

Also, nexttime, it's obvious you have no idea or understanding of the disruption caused by the oversized, awful music mods with hacked engine files you were obliquely referring to. They were pretty bad, and little good other than the quick laugh of a cheeky fool. It was spreading like a virus, so more so-called 'modders' started uploading engine files with music. Anyone with an SSD or perhaps a slower internet connection, doesn't really want dozens of updated hacked mods downloading and sitting in their LFS folder just so some goon can giggle at the disruption they are causing, so really there is no need to defend it.

To the other people, thank you and it's very nice to hear that you like the forum progress reports. I thought it was nice to give some insight into the development process by at least this one game programmer, how I think about things and so people can see how it goes. The detail, rather than the overview, shows how the development and code itself takes me on twists and turns on a journey of discovery that is much more complex than I can ever think of in advance. Maybe it lets people see what I like about the work, also a bit of the laborious stuff that isn't so much fun, and why things nearly always take so much longer than expected.

I'll definitely unsubscribe from this thread as the most important thing is to carry on pushing to get this bit of work finished, and avoid distraction. The multithreading has brought a really significant improvement and there's no turning back now!

Quote from Scawen :

Thanks, I do have an SSD and a very fast, quiet computer that I am in no mood to update at the moment when everything is going well. I don't mean 'fast' like an up to date PC but it boots up faster than any computer I have seen, opens programs in fractions of a second and compiles my code very quickly. It's one that Victor built for me several years ago and I have upgraded the SSD, OS, RAM and graphics card (a few times). It's relatively quiet as the CPU has a passive heat sink (no fan).

Good that you have at least an SSD. The way you exemplified an HDD and previous few things you wrote suggested to me (and others as well) that you were using some very old system. Plus it's not just me who got that impression. People were almost about to crowdfund you a new PC.

Quote from Scawen :

So, nexttime, there's not really a need to suggest I am some kind of an idiot not to put a lot of money and time into a super duper new PC with the latest shit operating system that keeps updating itself for no reason and loads of noisy fans. I'm happy with the computer set up that I have, which is the very reason that I have it.

Didn't really say that in any of my comments. Didn't tell you to upgrade your operating system or put fans in your pc either.

Quote from Scawen :

Also, nexttime, it's obvious you have no idea or understanding of the disruption caused by the oversized, awful music mods with hacked engine files you were obliquely referring to. They were pretty bad, and little good other than the quick laugh of a cheeky fool. It was spreading like a virus, so more so-called 'modders' started uploading engine files with music. Anyone with an SSD or perhaps a slower internet connection, doesn't really want dozens of updated hacked mods downloading and sitting in their LFS folder just so some goon can giggle at the disruption they are causing, so really there is no need to defend it.

I didn't talk about the mod itself either, I even specifically said "I am not about the mod argument."

Try being less defensive and you will understand what people are actually saying. You'll annoy yourself less as well.

/lock and hide/delete it.

Thank you for the dev logs Scawen. Very interesting to read, and a glimpse into all the unseen work. Used to watch Stefano Castillo's streams as well, when he was working on AC.

Good luck, looking forward to the next one.

Quote from Scawen :

To the other people, thank you and it's very nice to hear that you like the forum progress reports. I thought it was nice to give some insight into the development process by at least this one game programmer, how I think about things and so people can see how it goes. The detail, rather than the overview, shows how the development and code itself takes me on twists and turns on a journey of discovery that is much more complex than I can ever think of in advance. Maybe it lets people see what I like about the work, also a bit of the laborious stuff that isn't so much fun, and why things nearly always take so much longer than expected.

I'll definitely unsubscribe from this thread as the most important thing is to carry on pushing to get this bit of work finished, and avoid distraction. The multithreading has brought a really significant improvement and there's no turning back now!

I really like the you intention to optimize the game to the bone so even people playing with potato pc can appreciate the sim even after the update!That's the way to go!

I really like the view of LFS development.
I believe that there are some things that could be improved, mainly in relation to the mouse and keyboard controls.
An example is the difference between the mouse pilot versus the steering wheel.
Steering wheel pilot has instant timing and control over the pedals.
Mouse and keyboard pilot has certain limits, as the throttle, brake and handbrake response time by default is 200ms, masters of timings.
Being the best simulator you have for mouse and keyboard pilots.
If this part were customizable, it would allow the player to have a much better experience on the simulator.

But is not controlling with mouse and keyboard and the word simulator some kind of an oxymoron?

I made an exclusive post as a suggestion