We need someone else to translate this issue

sounds like someone is mixing gearshift debounce with button control rate.

gearshift debounce is the minimum time between shifts, to avoid accidental double shifts.

button control rate affects how fast the button will go from 0-1.

Quote from Scawen :

But I still don't know what this "gear debounce" is, where it is set, when it appears. Is it something intentional or a bug?

I am not sure if it's a bug. What it is that initial shift of movement when shifting gears.
It will make the bike fall over 100 percent of the time.

How to test -
Drive each bike at 20mph in first gear and slightly lean, and shift gear and notice how bad it causes the bike to become unbalanced/ unstable.

Quote from Scawen :

But I still don't know what this "gear debounce" is, where it is set, when it appears. Is it something intentional or a bug?

What I believe they are saying is that, yes, the effect that is already there is wanted and is intentional, just not in the amounts that it is currently present - it needs to be toned down (less friction in the clutch pack). Similarly, when AI wanted to pass a car in front it would deviate from its path, but it would do it way too quickly and not be able to recover after. You fixed it by lowering the rate or speed at which the steering wheel input of the AI car was manipulated.

In this case, I'm not sure what you can do, but my guess is playing with the clutch friction coefficients of bikes may be the key. Or maybe a slight modification of the clutch slip curve to allow more smoother bite point, in other words less steep curve in the force vs distance graph at the bite point. I don't know how you modeled the friction force, this is quite an art in the numerical simulations world. The very same thing you will have in your tire physics model.

Quote from rane_nbg :

What I believe they are saying is that, yes, the effect that is already there is wanted and is intentional, just not in the amounts that it is currently present - it needs to be toned down (less friction in the clutch pack). Similarly, when AI wanted to pass a car in front it would deviate from its path, but it would do it way too quickly and not be able to recover after. You fixed it by lowering the rate or speed at which the steering wheel input of the AI car was manipulated.

In this case, I'm not sure what you can do, but my guess is playing with the clutch friction coefficients of bikes may be the key. Or maybe a slight modification of the clutch slip curve to allow more smoother bite point, in other words less steep curve in the force vs distance graph at the bite point. I don't know how you modeled the friction force, this is quite an art in the numerical simulations world.

pretty much this scawen, the bite is so strong is unsettles the stability of the bike when shifting

If it help: I've raced against JayDeM, if connection is laggy, i've saw the bike falled and sound too, it a bite dissapointing. I have a G27 with vr, for the bike i use the laptop of my girlfriend with a XBOX controller, "A" button is for rear brake, B button is for up gear, X for down gear, LB clutch, RT gaz, RB brake. If steer bike begin to move at break, you need reduce brake, small rear brake and gaz, you can also begin to break with rear before front brake, in high speed, if you brake too late, keep your angle and light rear brake with the new patch, that more stable. Maybe add a new sound when you fall with bike? Bike is a new dimension and i love it! Tyres after 5 laps is over.

Hey, I just tested the D44 version and it seems all good except for the dust that is kicked up while driving on rallycross courses (or dirt) seems a little weird and off. The dust color doesn't really match the color of the ground (or dirt)

Hello Scawen,
are you considering adding the new 7D information "engine damage" to insim (more globally, perhaps a new "damage" or "car condition" package with clutch slip, bodywork, suspensions, etc.)?

Quote from KingOfIce :

Hello Scawen,
are you considering adding the new 7D information "engine damage" to insim (more globally, perhaps a new "damage" or "car condition" package with clutch slip, bodywork, suspensions, etc.)?

Yeah, I was also thinking during the race on Thurs that separating engine damage to a separate InSim repair flag would be useful (though I imagine that would also involve changing it to a unique damage type as well rather than generic, which I assume was done to make implementation simpler?).

Bike riders, please can you test the new bike steering model in D45? It's a lot more stable when changing gear and braking, also it should be better at low speeds thanks to a separate low speed model.

I'll read the other posts since D44 again and make notes to see what I can do or reply as needed. My main focus has been trying to improve this bike model which became less stable due to an improvement in D44. In this version, the underlying physics is unchanged, only the code that steers the front wheel is different. After the bikes are done, I can get back to finish the intermediate incompatible version with improved mod support, so finally I can get back to the development version and new tyre model.

This diversion onto bikes has taken a lot longer than expected, but I know there are a lot of people who enjoy the bikes and I wanted to make it more acceptable for now.


Changes in D45:

New more stable steering model for bikes:

Improved handling and braking ability
A new high speed model is used for speeds above 72 km/h
A special low speed model is used for speeds below 36 km/h
Models are interpolated between 36 and 72 km/h

AI:

Bike can now brake harder (safety margin the same as cars)
FIX: A hang generating path for a mod with "Max up" wrongly set
FIX: Downshift avoidance was too strong (sometimes needed clutch)

Interface:

A message shows the name of any mod that can't be loaded in an SPR


Download:

https://www.lfs.net/forum/thread/102117

Bike handling has changed a lot, before I could not really ride bikes, I was constantly falling, at low speeds there was a wobble, and now even I can go fast. The controls now are much easier, and more predictable, thank you! Great bike update!

AI Blackwood lap time - updated with version D45

Cars - no major changes
Bikes - ~1 seconds faster than the D44


Regards


D46 updates: https://www.lfs.net/forum/post/2063360#post2063360

Quote from Scawen :

Bike riders, please can you test the new bike steering model in D45?

I would consider this a success.

D43 - bikes was as they was pre d43, good drivable, wobble on braking, turning, maintaining speed and angle. Brakes caused issues with "pulling" into the direction of lean during braking.

D44 - brakes no longer cause pulling into direction of lean (centered wheel physics changed)
bike handling improved more aligned with exact movement of steering made (made it more darty and precise)
still had issues with wobbling on braking, turning, maintain speed and angle

D45- Brakes no longer cause any such issues under any load and lock up/ or cause endo as they should
bike handling improved further, stability is increased on all forms of riding with bike.

From my perspective I would not change a thing from here on until new tire model is around.

Scawen, I would see what SIMOX (driftis) response is as-well.

Side effects - uh, wheelies are easier now and so are endo's so thats pretty cool.

We really appreciate what your doing Scawen, the work you put in definitely doesn't go unnoticed.

https://medal.tv/games/live-for-speed/clips/1AIJWJptPaP5Zx/d1337nxlJPTT?invite=cr-MSxFTFUsODYwMDEzMzcs

"A new high speed model is used for speeds above 72 km/h
A special low speed model is used for speeds below 36 km/h
Models are interpolated between 36 and 72 km/h"


I would like to see an option to trigger this off/on for certain circumstances, such as driving fast track, which contains rather slow corners. Otherwise it is greatly improved.

EDIT: Yes I know, it is suggestion really... but it is so much integrated for this I could not see to report anywhere else, as driving itself is vastly improved.

Now it appears that it is safer to use the brakes and downshift more abruptly

Agree with the all the responses above. There was a clear improvement during braking, the bike no longer wobbles heavily under braking and braking while leaning is much better. It is more predicable and thus more enjoyable. Thanks

I have a question. Does LFS have rider weight control on the bikes? In reality, rider leans to better pass the corner. We've had a bit of an argument on social media. Some people think that the non-visual leaning of the rider happens in sync with the steering axes. Some people think there's no rider weight control in the LFS.

And if it's not there, then why not?

And if it is, can it be optionally made into a separate control?
And also add forward/backward leaning for stunts.

Quote from Aleksandr_124rus :

I have a question. Does LFS have rider weight control on the bikes? In reality, rider leans to better pass the corner. We've had a bit of an argument on social media. Some people think that the non-visual leaning of the rider happens in sync with the steering axes. Some people think there's no rider weight control in the LFS.

And if it's not there, then why not?

And if it is, can it be optionally made into a separate control?
And also add forward/backward leaning for stunts.

Here’s what Scawen wrote about it earlier:

Quote from Scawen :

(…) I also tried the early stages of a more physical model which tries to simulate gyroscopic forces and really apply steering forces to that. To separate a bike's natural handling, from forces applied by the arms. But it seems a little distant for me to produce such a genuine physical model at this time and I'd rather not do that with the old tyre physics. And a complete model would need body movement too, which isn't for now.

Thank you for the feedback and videos!

It seems a lot better and more fun to ride than before, so that's great and hopefully is enough for now. It'll be nice to merge the updates and get the other incompatible version released.

I'd also like to hear what Drifteris can do with it after watching his impressive lap in D44.

Quote from Aleksandr_124rus :

I have a question. Does LFS have rider weight control on the bikes? In reality, rider leans to better pass the corner. We've had a bit of an argument on social media. Some people think that the non-visual leaning of the rider happens in sync with the steering axes. Some people think there's no rider weight control in the LFS.

And if it's not there, then why not?

And if it is, can it be optionally made into a separate control?
And also add forward/backward leaning for stunts.

In addition to what Flame quoted, I also made these comments in recent times:

September:

Quote from Scawen :

As an old rider, I am interested in making the bike riding a lot better. At the moment the rider animation doesn't affect weight distribution in any way, it's purely aesthetic.

It's a complicated project to be done at some point but I'd like the rider to be able to sit up for braking, get down for high speeds, move sideways for race style cornering. And also move hands with the bars correctly even when the body is in a different position. Combining animations (or some kind of physical arm and body system) is not an easy task but is something I am interested in, as some people might know from the creatures in Lionhead's original Black & White.

It's not a task I can take on in the near future because it's really big and of course it's massively more important to get the new physics and graphics update released.

October:

Quote from Scawen :

Yes, the mass of the driver is currently represented by the light yellow L shaped object, and the animation is visual / aesthetic only. It's not very satisfactory but that's as far as I got before we released the whole mods system. It was a reasonable representation in cars but for bike we will really need something much better.

Really better, you can brake later and you need engage the bike more on curb, i place my spr (with my crash) if it help that's really funny to drive!

this 45 update rides so weird at low speeds O_O

Maybe it just takes getting used to but now it feels abit weird and clunky

Quote from Marty_Deslions :

this 45 update rides so weird at low speeds O_O

Maybe it just takes getting used to but now it feels abit weird and clunky

With such a report, it is better if you can tell me a specific bike and roughly what speed and what you were trying to do. Otherwise I really have no idea where to start.

Brake is really realist, with small clutch, the bike is more stable now! At 30km/h, the steering (death zone) seems to slow, but is okay for me, this is "live for speed" not "live for slow" ^^

TSX750, look that drifting! Could not focus anymore


EDIT: WIth R2, you can make even longer drifting. Made a lap with this combo, R1 definitely suits for being faster drastically, but only for 1-2 laps as tires are getting hotter.


Riding bikes are indeed improved, there is no more doubt of it.

Quote from Gabey1 :

What causes bikes to fall going offroad? Will we see bikes able to go offroad? (Grass surfaces) Biggest problem about this is just clipping a tiny bit of grass going through a corner and immediately losing control/falling. It would be heaps better if this was countered somehow, but i can somehow see how making this with the current tire model is tricky. Curious to see your opinion, thanks.