I think some fast people need to learn some common sense when it comes to lapping backmarkers, being slow I've got plenty of experience being a backmarker as well as being a faster car, so I understand the frustration of being stuck behind somebody.

A few things to point out to lapping cars:

- You have no right to barge down the inside. IRL most rule books state that the backmarker does not have to jump off the racing line to let the car behind past, whilst it is polite to do so if there is contact unless the backmarker has done something unbelievably stupid it is the faster cars fault by default.

- You've got to be able to catch the backmarker, this sounds obvious but I've seen too many times people complaining when the backmarker is running at the same speed as the front running car. If you can't keep up the backmarker doesn't have to slow down to let you catch up, although remember that sometimes a backmarker may not be catchable in single seaters due to dirty air this is a different case.

- You don't have to pass in the middle of a chicane, I've had several people take me out trying to lap me at the Blackwood chicane recentley, ffs you can't pass there when racing for position so when lapping someone it's a non-starter.

- You don't have to put out 'Blue Flag let me past' messages, they don't help let the person ahead know you're coming, he's already got 'BLUE FLAG' slapped in his face by LFS he doesn't need your message and neither does everybody else on the server, it just adds as a distraction to everyone else and increases the chance people will block messages so anything that is useful isn't heard.

- If people don't let you through straight away don't ram them off the road. There's never an excuse to hit someone and there's nothing more off putting for newbies. Just talk to them after the race calmly and explain to them what blue flags are, and remember people generally listen better if you don't swear at them first.

- Don't honk your horn at every person you lap. Only ever use the horn if people aren't moving, as in holding you up for at least one corner. There's nothing more intimidating for new people to have someone honk there horn at you then ram you off the road because you didn't jump onto the grass. Like chat being blocked the horn files can easilly be got rid of and then you'll never be able to honk at people so don't use it too often and annoy people with it when they already know there's a blue flag.

+1

I've lapped people and been lapped as well. One of the most annoying things in the world is a faster driver who can't wait a few seconds until you're on a part of the track where he can pass you safely (I've been nailed at the BL chicane too). Another is a backmarker who tries to block you when you're clearly faster and have every right to pass him unchallenged. A bit of common sense and basic knowledge of RL racing rules would help some people a lot.

A while back I was in a race at BL where a guy started honking at me as soon as I passed him - this was on lap 1! He kept honking and sending "faster driver - move" but we were fighting for position and I was quicker in some sections than he was and racing cleanly. After the race (and after he'd tried a lunatic move on me on the last turn and ended up finding the wall) he flamed me for blocking him and cheating. I explained I didn't have to move unless he was lapping me and he thought I was making it up. The rest of the field and I had to explain to the ignoramus that it's in the FIA rules - then we had to explain what the FIA is

I agree with all of you. I can't count how many times I've had arguements with people over the meanings of Blue Flag, Some people think blue flag means "GIT OFF MY TRACK FOO!" when it actually means "Please stay to your racing line/racing speed and allow leader(s) to pass when he(they) makes an interest at a safe time". That is the most annoying thing, and it seems to happen most often at blackwood (In S2 also). Is it the fact that the demo'ers get S2, and come directly to BL with the Formula cars and think "ZOMG, I AM FAST, GET OUT OF MY WAY" and haven't learnt the real rules of racing?


EDIT: I swear I've made this exact post like 5 times, RSC and here. Proof that people don't learn, becuase I have to keep hammering my point into some peoples heads.

Quote from ajp71 :

- You've got to be able to catch the backmarker, this sounds obvious but I've seen too many times people complaining when the backmarker is running at the same speed as the front running car. If you can't keep up the backmarker doesn't have to slow down to let you catch up, although remember that sometimes a backmarker may not be catchable in single seaters due to dirty air this is a different case.

I feel I need to expand on this because the common problem with coming up on backmarkers is always both driver's reference to distance between each other before a "safe" measure is performed.

For example, if I am coming up fast on lapped traffic, a terrible driver will wait until the last second and when I am TOO close for comfort. In other words, it seems like their mirror can only see 20 meters behind them and as if they are 'stunned' by being lapped. Most good drivers who are being lapped think ahead of time and know the proper way to give room. And will allow themselves to slow down fully, maybe even brake, and pull aside. In most cases though, the backmarker is just careless and can be a distraction for a lapping driver coming up from behind.

Even if the lapping driver cannot pass the backmarker, I still think some obedience should happen. I usually use a rule of thumb for how close a car may be to let someone pass... and that that distance between me and the other driver is hard to explain but... I think it is generally safe to pass (or let them pass) if you are in the same corner together. Not super close in the corner, but like the last turn at BL for example, if I was approaching the entry of that turn and a lapped car was at the exit, that is about the distance where both drivers should be aware of what actions they take.

Now if the backmarker is faster and going to pass ME, then that is where things can get ugly. You usually see arguments where "Why were you racing with me when you were laps down from me????" I've seen it a lot, and if a backmarker is getting in your way, faster or not, I still think the backmarker should be considerate and realize that they cannot win and just stop disrupting other driver's races.

Quote from Tweaker :

Now if the backmarker is faster and going to pass ME, then that is where things can get ugly. You usually see arguments where "Why were you racing with me when you were laps down from me????" I've seen it a lot, and if a backmarker is getting in your way, faster or not, I still think the backmarker should be considerate and realize that they cannot win and just stop disrupting other driver's races.

I agree with everything you said, expect for that. A backmarker has every right to try and get that lap back. Granted it really doesn't matter in these little short races that most servers host. But, I personally, treat most races like i'm racing in a season and every position counts. So if the backmarker is obviously faster than you. Then have a good clean race and if they pass, great for them. And, remember, according to FIA, you are allowed ONE defensive move. Not 10 moves with the intent of running the other driver off the track...lol.

But this one issue is where a backmarker will try and get that lap back but will not gain any ground in front of you and continue to hold you up.

I said if that backmarker is "faster", and maybe I was too vague there. But there are some drivers that think they can get the lap back but are not fully capable of doing so, and continue to pull in front of a race with one or more drivers and pretty much "RACE" someone they shouldn't be racing with.

And like I said in my last sentence there, if they are laps and laps down, why in the hell should they continue to try and gain it all back? There is no point. They feel they have something to prove I guess, and in the end it is just not good racing ethics.

Quote from Tweaker :

But there are some drivers that think they can get the lap back but are not fully capable of doing so, and continue to pull in front of a race with one or more drivers and pretty much "RACE" someone they shouldn't be racing with.

Then what you are saying only effects those individuals, not every backmarker.

(my own words contradicting me heheh)

??? It can still apply to any backmarker though. Not even if the backmarker is fast and can get out and pass racing traffic which it should not, it could happen in any situation. Any driver that spins or makes a mistake, a backmarker could suddenly be in front. If the backmarker is a fast driver and can hold his/her ground and 'hold' up the car trying to race, then there at least should be some recognition between the drivers. I guess as long as the blue flag is given they should obey it. I am just repeating what ajp71 said I guess.

Alonso springs to mind with his waving fists from traffic in his way, heh. There were times where it seemed like the car in front (way in front) was capable of staying in front of Alonso for maybe another lap or two, but Alonso doesn't like that, and wants his damn blue flags! heheh.

Sometimes when Alonso shakes his fist it is because the Marshalls have failed to delpoy a blue flag. Often this can be seen and on TV it nearly always appears that the backmarker is at fault, but (as happened at Magny Cours on one occasion) the backmarker may not yet have been shown the blue flag. In LFS the flag comes out at a set distance, so I suppose some latitude is required.

one remark: I do agree that if a person in the race is lapped then he does not have to jump off the track, but if the person joined on lap 3 out of 5, then he should...

It happened to me few days ago, that we were having a great race for the 1. place, I was about 0.8s behind the leader and was gaining on him (reverse startgrid), and then on the 3rd lap when we are in the middle of the track (we1r) someone joins, goes his pace and then just approaching the "no-look fast chicane" this guy lets the leader pass and then enters the chicane, driving slowly, blocking me off and effectively ending the race for me

Then after the race i asked the guy for an apology and he didn't even care > one nice kick for him...

Another case for "no mid-race join".

Quote from Gunn :

Another case for "no mid-race join".

That feature could still be enabled and this would still happen. It's only for people Spectating and attempting to join.

Someone could just be fooling around with their car setup in the pits and pit out at any random lap. I've done it a lot, but I usually just sit in the pit lane and wait until the race is over to test my set, or just spectate (but spectating will reset your grid position to the very back -- ok for some) Other people just pit out and do as they please

well "no mid-race join" would have solved this in my case, but i don't want to enforce this, the only thing we need is people who THINK before they enter the track and who THINK while driving and i mean everybody...

but that is an utopian thought...

Yeah people are eager to race, no matter what anyone says. The game is pretty easygoing for people to enjoy driving online... so it is probably only common we see little issues like these.

If LFS was really strict on how it managed racing and it's rules, it would be for the serious racers at heart, but any beginner doesn't get the opportunity to learn from their mistakes.

Quote from Hankstar :

A while back I was in a race at BL where a guy started honking at me as soon as I passed him - this was on lap 1! He kept honking and sending "faster driver - move" but we were fighting for position and I was quicker in some sections than he was and racing cleanly. After the race (and after he'd tried a lunatic move on me on the last turn and ended up finding the wall) he flamed me for blocking him and cheating. I explained I didn't have to move unless he was lapping me and he thought I was making it up. The rest of the field and I had to explain to the ignoramus that it's in the FIA rules - then we had to explain what the FIA is

Surprisingly familiar although it was spamming of a blue flag message when it happened to me.

A lot of people are quicker than me, but if they are in the same lap no honking or spamming will help, they'll have to pass me the old fashioned way, because they can pass instead of hotlap

I'll make a mistake eventually anyway and not be bothered by that. There is always a next race that I can take myself out off

I personally wreck backmarkers when they don't move out of the racing line (or at least when they don't let me overtake easily) when I am leader

Why ?

It's simple : on open road, when someone is far away behind you, you never see him again... right ?
So why on a track, when he is far away behind you, you see him again ? Yes because it's a track, a kind of infinite loop...

So IMO thoses backmarkers should be "invisible" (like open road) for leaders : they are definitively not racing in the same race as leaders. In "time" they are behind you, but in "physics" they are in front of you... strange isn't it ?

So they should be "invisible" for leaders, it's the best solution

(And most of the time they disturb the race of leaders...)

In my book blue flag just indicates "Hey, when that guy passes you you won't loose a position, so don't fight him". It's a nice gesture to slow down to let someone pass, but not necessary. It's only required to not make any blocking moves.
Both drivers are racing. The lapper fights for first or second position and the lappee fights for 9th or 10th place, so both drivers don't have any time to spare.

What I'm going at: The blue flag get's into effect when you make a passing move and will force the lappee to not make a blocking move. Everything beyond that is a nice gesture that can be done, but doesn't have to be done.
When I get lapped I devote a half second of laptime to the pass. Perhaps an outside-line or something else where the lapper can make his move safely. You can't expect more from a lappee in a racing situation.

Vain

It's difficult. When you race in publics a hell of a lot of people just ignore the blue flags (which mean let the person pass, let's not forget that) repeatably.

In a race they would be subject to a race penalty. Back markers aren't subjected to this in LFS, so the drive to move over and let someone pass is far lower.

If someone repeatably fails to move over although you are so much quicker, a nice little tap on the bum pushes them off line and allows you past.

It does seem people dont know what the blue flag means, espeically new people and all we can try and do is educate them.
The 2 things that annoy me are when back markers block you from passing when they shouldn't e.g. Taking defensive lines, trying to pass u back straight after you've passed them etc. Also when people who are laps down pull out of the pits - I was racing gtr blackwood after about 3 laps i was in 2nd about 0.3 secs behind leader and we were lapping almost identical times, then braking for T1 someone pulls out of pits into the 0.3 gap between us and then takes the chicane about 20 mph slower than it can be slowing me down ruining my chances (as 4 lap race) of winning, i accepted it drafted past th straight for them to pull a 'do or die' pass and just crash into me taking me out completely.
These thigns happen i know - just seems some people are corteous (spelling?)

Edit: Best thing to think when racing is - "do to others what you would like done to you" its an old saying but its true - would u like a back marker to block you? no? then dont block the leaders.

Quote from Chris_Kerry :

In a race they would be subject to a race penalty. Back markers aren't subjected to this in LFS, so the drive to move over and let someone pass is far lower.

In a RL race you won't be shown a blue flag if you're pulling away from a the guy whose about to lap you or in the middle of a fast blind corner. IIRC you have to miss 5 blue flags (shown much later than in LFS) to get a penalty.

@ Phlos - You tend to wreck/block everyone. Please remember that whilst not everyone is as fast as you they can still be racing others and for those learning a track there is nothing worse than being taken out on purpose by a faster car just because they didn't jump off the line, which they are not required to do (except mid-race join).

One last thing, please remember that a yellow flag overides a blue flag.

Great comments, AJP.

To the guys like Phlos, I assume you ended up with this attitude because you got exasperated with people who completely ignored blue flags and did things like block passes when they were laps down. Sure, that sort of behaviour is frustrating. But you make the LFS world a poorer place if you respond by knocking people off the track as soon as you come up behind them. Would you want to race in a game where everyone behaved this way?

I think, as in most cases this is a matter of respect for other drivers. If i join mid-race, i always keep of the main line as soon as i get a blue flag, and before pitting out, i make sure i wont cause any potential danger to racing cars. As i see it, the racing rules doesnt ever grant you any rights, only obligations. Some people drive like they own full right to the track, and as i have seen, it often leads to them going into a wall. A blue flag means, youre obligated to let the leading car pass as soon as it is considered safe, but it grants no rights to the leading car. If that would have been the case, i think the leading car would be getting a flag message like: "blue flag, youre good to pass" or something similar. When i drive, i use my common logic sense to take descisions on what action to take at any given moment. I can actually get enjoyment out of just driving accurate and polite, (i think it adds to the reality of the simulation) and i have noticed, that even if i aint the fastest car around, i have sometimes gained high positions by just taking it a little calm and showing some respect while others crash all over the place...

Same here. At the end of the day, I don't want to wreck someone elses race, or be accused of doing so. Simple thing, is exit the pits once the leaders pass, or pull over (or maintain line) when the approach.

You would have thought it simple, wouldn't you?

Quote from Phlos :

I personally wreck backmarkers when they don't move out of the racing line (or at least when they don't let me overtake easily) when I am leader

I hope you're just joking. Granted its only a game, but that's irresponsible.

Because I'm still a fairly new s2 licensee and am still learning a lot of the tracks, I get blue flagged a lot. I have no problem letting a faster racer past. Of course until I started playing LFS I had no idea what the flags meant anyway

Here's my blue flag rules:

1. Normally I don't pull off the racing line unless it's practical to do so. Staying behind me for one corner will not cause the lapper to lose a noticable amount of time, whereas if I take a bad line it might screw up my lap and make me lose my own place.

2. I sometimes ease up to 80-85% throttle on straights, thinking that if they're catching me then it won't take long for them to be out of my way and let me get the gas on again.

3. If the line on the straight crosses the track, I will leave it so that the faster car can pass without trouble, unless we're close enough to the next turn that point 1 applies.

I hope that's not bad etiquette, but seems like common sense to me