Personally I dont bother to tell them. The blue flag usually comes on early in LFS, although from the point of view of 'some' leaders not nearly early enough... I tend to give way at the next sensible spot when the car behind is around half the draw distance of my mirrors behind. I dont tell them i'm giving way, my positioning of the car should be obvious.
When leading i'll happily flash my lights once or twice at a backmarker when i'm ready to pass and they still havn't 'made it easy', although I never spam text or toot the horn. The only problem here is the car i'm most capable of lapping in is the Fox, and it hasn't got lights. When I get in a salloon or hatchback I go back to getting the blue flag message myself again...
I have two binds "<- pass left" and "pass right ->". They always work pretty good.
If I get shown a blue flag, I immediately move out of the way anyway, no sense holding up the leader(s). Its not, like the 1 or 2 seconds, I lose with that, are that important, when Im already 1 lap down.
I was confronted with blue flags for the first time in a recent race meet, the leader was about 2 sec a lap faster, however the track was southcity so pretty tough to pass at the best of times. When the bleu flag originally showed he was far too far behind to make even the craziest of overtakes so I let him catch up, by the end of the lap he was close enough that on the exit of the last corner he'd have a good run down the straight, I pulled off the racing line allowing him to get a better exit and blended my throttle out toward the end of the straight so he could see me in his mirror and know that I wasn't about to dive down his inside. The next car quickly came to a "blue flag" distance but never closed so I never did anything to help them by. They were never in a position to make a pass without me losing a massive amount of time waiting on the outside of a corner for them to pass or something. I never blocked them I just continued to race.
If I'm lapping you I wouldn't expect you to jump out the way, but equally if you see me making a move down your inside I'd expect you to yeild, even if under normall racing you'd give me the squeeze. I also think that any and all lapped cars do not have the right to unlap themselves unless the car that lapped them has just had an accident or whatnot.
You're right...that was bad writing on my part. I didn't mean to imply that blocking was okay under blue...only once and only in the normal course of racing. A move to block a much faster racer and the leaders would certainly be inapproporiate
What amazes me is you asume I didn't search the forum and didn't read other threads. What amazes me more, and why I started this one, is there seem to be an awful lot of folks that don't understand what a blue flag means. And the responses here prove my point.
If you're so worried about wasting bytes on another blue flag thread you might have contributed something to help solve the problem...
I have been racing a lot recently on Blackwood in the FOX. I have found that its very hard to avoid some backmarkers when they are in certain turns. For example yesterday i was chasing down the leader, and at the bend after the straight (which i take flat in 4th) i came across a backmarker doing half the speed i was, on the racing line...i had no way to get out of it and ended up collecting him and flipping my car over.
I agree that blue flags do not mean you can push people out of the way, but if you know your so much slower that it would be dangerous to not let the leaders pass i think you should try and move over quickly.
And there is a problem of people a lap or more down trying to race the leader when they are not fast enough to get past safely.
All the major sancioning bodies. The SCCA rule book, for example says, "The responsibility for the decision to pass another car rests with the overtaking driver."
In Formula Dodge races, for example, if the overtaking driver is not at least alongside at the turn-in point (at the latest) and there is contact as a result of the pass attempt, the overtaking driver is at fault.
Again, like the blocking moves that are allowed, that's specifically about cars racing for position, without blue flags. The ruling on blue flag situations often puts the responsibility onto the car being shown the blue flag to allow the following car to pass.
[Edit] There does seem to be some variation between sactioning bodies and their take on how far a blue flag goes. The SCCA, for example, basically state the blue is used to warn the driver a car is trying to overtake (although not stipulated, it is probably mostly in cases of cars being lapped). It does not seem to indicate the following car should be allowed to pass. The FIA, on the other hand, do state the car being shown the flag should allow the following car to pass, 'at the earliest opportunity'. These sort of differences probably don't help a global racing community come to agreement on what it means in LFS. Throw in those who don't give a shit or just don't handle the situation well, and you'll occasionaly have the odd incident.
The rulebooks don't always make it 100% clear and some of the blue flag policy is dictated in the drivers meeting based on what has happened in the past. For example for one meeting in the series my Dad races in it was decided that backmarkers would take the racing line and faster cars would overtake on the outside due to several near misses in practice.
Correct! I entirely agree [edit--added later: about racing for position, but I'm not aware of a single example where the responsibility is on the car shown the blue flag. If there is such a statement somewhere it certainly would explain some of the confusion here. Can you recall where you saw that?]
Well put. Any chance we could come to some consensus within LFS including some sanction for those that ignore it (kick or ban)?
Actually, other than this issue and the T1 mayhem, folks in general and here on LFS spcifically are great fun to race with online.
I think the consensus should just be that when shown the blue, and the lapper is close behind you, hold your line. Don't slow up on a straight or veer off of the track so they can get by. Also, don't block or change lanes across the track and don't hold the driver up if it is avoidable.
To automate such a behaviour wouldn't do justice to faster racers who are lapped (for example because they started later) but still going faster then the people ahead. Should they slow down to a halt for that? I don't think so, if they're sensible enough not to cause damage. But the thing was addressed somewhere else, I don't remember if in CRC rules or in another thread or two, or three...
Agree entirely, not something that should be automated; passing, after all, is what racing is all about. I was just suggesting that perhaps we could try to find a simple statement of the rule that we would all agree is fair and effective (recognizing, of course, that there will always be those that don't give a rat's ass).
On a recent marshal training day, we were all told quite plainly that it's up to the person passing to get around the backmarker. True, the car in front isn't allowed to block as if it were racing for position. But it should not slow down/move out of the way on a straight, as that would be extremely dangerous. When it comes to corners, the slower driver should not defend it's position, so common sense prevails with most drivers and they take a slower/wider line. IRL, if you tried to over take a blue flagged driver on a dangerous chicane like South City, you'd be liable for any accident you caused.
A lapped driver is always allowed to "unlap" itself, provided it's safe to do so. The same passing rules as normal would apply (if it crashed into the car it was unlapping, it would be at fault).
At a real race meeting, the drivers would be gathered at the beginning of the session and have the rules for that meeting explained to them, that way there would be no grey areas like in LFS.
From my very own point of view, if there's enough room to do it safely, you can also move away gently from the racing line. But surely not when the lapping player is really close. As long as careful moves are made by the lapped driver he can do whatever he likes to let the lapping driver pass. But certainly a written and widely agreed consent on behaviour could help establishing at least a rule of thumb. I'll keep moving away from the racing line if I deem safe to do so , even with a very gentle and safe lift off to let the lapping driver understand fully that I am giving way.
I'm inclined to disagree with Mario (assuming he's talking about cornering) when he writes:
As a leader--not that that happens a whole lot, mind you--when I'm overtaking a slower car I prefer something predicatable to maneuver around...and the most predictable car is one on the racing line. If I'm overtaking a slower car, and set up for an inside pass, for example, the last thing I want is for him to pull to the inside and slow up!
And to clarify, I don't believe holding the racing line applies if you're racing for position. The lead car has every right to take a tight line to make a pass more difficult...at the expense of slower lap times for both cars, of course. That's why two or three cars fighting it out are often overtaken by others back in the pack, after all.
If Mario is suggesting, as a back marker, pulling off line on a straight and feathering the trottle to ensure a clean pass for leaders before the next corner, I would definitely agree.
*flexes fingers* ...
I did a few posts further on, but why not have said your piece on the blue flag thread that was at the time still active? Or the one from late last week? Or the one from early last week? Why not continue a discussion rather than start a new one?
Worse yet, why take your own blue flag thread totally off topic *boggle* ?
damn it i was racing tonight and yeah im a noob but am getting respectable places. Anyway racing tonight and i'm in a field of 16 and am in 7th place when who should ram me off the racing line but a guy called stip (dunno if anybody has had the pleasure, twat just couldnt go round me no he had to make a point and butt me outta the way. Next time he tried again so i butt him back and he goes straight into a wall loosing 1st place. All he had to do was go around me, i even slowed for the twat.
Saying that this is the first time i've had an tossbag butt me from my line so it isnt all bad.
And "overtaking driver" implies that 2 drivers are on the same lap racing for positions. The blue flag because it is shown in the situation of being lapped, puts the responsibility on the driver being lapped. He is meant to keep his racing line so the driver lapping him can pass safely.
The rules are not the same as those of racing for positions.
The problem we have in LFS is that backmarkers being shown the blue flag often try to race with you, as if they race for a position, and this is not allowed.
Unless of course, if they are having a battle for 9th and 10th, then the leader cannot expect 10th and 9th to just pause their battle for position, the leader will haffto compromise, either wait for them to make a mistake, or have one win the battle. People are impatient, especially some of the uber fast guys, who think that the world should move off the track while they are driving.
Forget the rules for a sec and apply some common sense.
Anyone who wants to be a fair driver and has a blue flag, should let the leaders pass safely ASAP. Even if some rules say different things, don't hang to these rules as an excuse for beeing unfair to the leaders. You're out of the race, they're not.
It really is that simple. You're out of the battle for the lead, you're beeing lapped probably because you're slower, just let them pass and keep their race. Apply common sense as to where and how you let them pass such that it's safe for both of you, but please let them, even if it requires actively slowing down. It's only fair, and that's what you'd probably want if you were a leader following lapped car. Of course, it applies even stronger if you start from the pits after the race has started.
If, however, you KNOW (not guess/think.. etc) that you're faster than the lapping car, you may have your fun and keep your ride, keeping an eye on the map/mirrors and making sure the lapping car is not closing on you. The bottom line is not to interfere with the race at the front. Just out of fairness and because that's what you'd want if it was the other way around.
This is actually wrong. The battle should be put on hold to let the leader by.
Technically not quite right. The responsibility of letter the leader through is the backmarkers, the resonsibility of the safe execution of the maneuvre is the leaders.
Other than races that have descended into bedlam for whatever reason I have not found this to be true. My only gripe with peoples use and understanding of the blue flag in LFS is *when* to moove over as there is generally dissagreement on how soon it should happen and whether the leader should loose any track time at all - or whether the backmarker should be disqualified (or rather shouted and sworn at) just for having existed.
The other issue is if leader and backmarker touch is who's fault it is - however this is not really a major problem in LFS. Drivers can't agree who's fault an accident is if they are racing for position and LFS is no different to real life here. All accidents are always the fault of "the other guy". Heck I got chopped badly and sent into a wall last night by S14 Drift who was trying his hand at a race track ... his immediate response was to hit a "What the hell was that?" hotkey, which made me wonder if I should make a "Check the replay, twat!" hotkey of my own...
Most racing rulebooks dont put a clear description in regarding when to move over when under blue, but in real racing it generally isn't as much of a problem as it is in LFS - you learn it by seeing what everyone else does. In LFS we're all the heroes, nobody is the spectator, so we never learn.
When writing the rules for the STCC I had to devise regulations that I felt would be understandable and clear by LFS racers and would define when a backmarker should move over in the hope of achieving an acceptable standard for everyone, in doing so I greatly simplified the blue flag regulations and basically said it was the backmarkers job to get out of the way at half draw distance of the mirrors. However, the rules also say...
[COLOR=#000000]Leaders should not expect to lap a backmarker without incurring any delay, hold ups from traffic are a part of racing and should be accepted.[/COLOR]
And it's this last point which I think is lost on most LFS drivers and spawned this thread.
illepall
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