I agree. If Alonse ever thought F1 was a sport and not the money game it really is, then he was pretty naive.

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This device has been in the Renault since the end of 05 and has never been questioned. Yet the FIA can just stamp there foot all of a sudden at a GP weekend and tell them to remove it.

Have you even tried understanding my post? I did not write a single line regarding the basis of the ruling and wether I find that acceptable.

I simply wrote why the FIA "all of a sudden stamped there foot". They weren't involved before McLaren filed the protest and they do not act without being presented a device and/or without a protest being filed.

Quote :

I've yet to see hard evidence of significant movement on the Renault wings,

I guess you havent seen any onboard videos from the same perspective as the Ferrari ones. That Renault's front wing was flexibel could already be seen last season. The only reason it became more apparent with Ferrari's wing was that Ferrari had the upper part of the wing touching the nose and that this part was bending away. The back lip of the lower shelf has been moving on all front wings quite some time now, not just since Bahrain when the issue got hot.

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Turkish GP start which I thought was very dodgy from Schumacher, in the end resulting in Fisi spinning.

Just one word: lol

Is MS now not allowed to attack the pole sitter when he is in P2 and/or defend his position? Must he look that no car that is behind him not spin? I guess he should better start from the back of the grid from now on so he can make sure none of the Super Aguri and Midland get affected by him turning into a corner.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJQ0wpkus38

Maybe Fisico should complain to Alonso for cutting across in the way he did? But in no means had MS anything to do with Fisico spinning.

Quote from xaotik :

It was '94 in that clip and Hill won because MSC was disqualified for illegal wear on the bargeboard, not for his driving.

'95 was the one MSC started 16th and finished first mostly because it rained and everyone else seemed to be water-soluble.

Actually that IS a clip from the 95 race at Spa...it's easy to tell when you know your car shapes

1994 Williams had a "low nose" as is cleary seen in the Adelaide clip (last race of the season) whereas the Williams in that vid is of a "high nose" configuration that Williams didn't adopt until the 1995 season after it had been so successful on the '94 Benetton

In fact the last top team to run a "low nose" was Ferrari at the start of '96 when Schumi joined them, only for them to change it after a few races of Hill/Villeneuve dominance

Quote from DethMag :

Actually that IS a clip from the 95 race at Spa...it's easy to tell when you know your car shapes

1994 Williams had a "low nose" as is cleary seen in the Adelaide clip (last race of the season) whereas the Williams in that vid is of a "high nose" configuration that Williams didn't adopt until the 1995 season after it had been so successful on the '94 Benetton

In fact the last top team to run a "low nose" was Ferrari at the start of '96 when Schumi joined them, only for them to change it after a few races of Hill/Villeneuve dominance

You are correct, sir and corrected I stand. Very good point about the nose. Thing is I remembered a similar duel between Hill and Schumacher in '94. Then this is the '95 one that was played out with tyre selection strategy so MSC was with drys (slicks actually at that time) while Hill was with wets in those laps in the video- later on the track dried up and MSC passed Hill again, no?

Quote from Hoellsen :

Have you even tried understanding my post? I did not write a single line regarding the basis of the ruling and wether I find that acceptable.

I simply wrote why the FIA "all of a sudden stamped there foot". They weren't involved before McLaren filed the protest and they do not act without being presented a device and/or without a protest being filed.



I guess you havent seen any onboard videos from the same perspective as the Ferrari ones. That Renault's front wing was flexibel could already be seen last season. The only reason it became more apparent with Ferrari's wing was that Ferrari had the upper part of the wing touching the nose and that this part was bending away. The back lip of the lower shelf has been moving on all front wings quite some time now, not just since Bahrain when the issue got hot.



Just one word: lol

Is MS now not allowed to attack the pole sitter when he is in P2 and/or defend his position? Must he look that no car that is behind him not spin? I guess he should better start from the back of the grid from now on so he can make sure none of the Super Aguri and Midland get affected by him turning into a corner.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJQ0wpkus38

Maybe Fisico should complain to Alonso for cutting across in the way he did? But in no means had MS anything to do with Fisico spinning.

Thanks for that video, proved my point exactly. He changes direction 3 times, you are only allowed to move once and technically back to the racing line. He moves once across to try stop the fast starting Alonso but fails. He then sees Fisi so moves across on him and he then comes back across towards Alonso to force him out wide to stop him from driving clean around the outside, like he was away to do. You can clearly see from Alonso's onboard camera he has to avoid the kamikaze Ferrari.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAPUziN41aU

My point is that the flexi wings took ages before they were removed from the Ferrari. The FIA were stamping down on it yet Ferrari continued to run them without penalty nor threat.

Renault had to remove the mass damper at the click of a finger and were told after that race meeting they'd be allowed to put it back on the car until the court case. So when Renault turn up with the device at Hungary they are forced to remove it as the car failed pre race scruteneering because of it.

To me that shows one thing only, the FIA trying to mess Renault around and put them on there back foot. It's been highlighted many times since with all sorts of strange penalties. This is not how a governing body should work, and especially one of such high profile as the FIA.

Keiran

Quote :

The FIA has moved to ensure there is no repeat of the controversy surrounding Fernando Alonso's qualifying penalty at Monza by changing the way that blocking incidents will be dealt with from now on.

Alonso was dropped five places on the grid for the Italian Grand Prix after the race stewards found that he had impeded Felipe Massa during the closing stages of qualifying.

That decision created a furore at Renault, who both denied that Alonso had done anything deliberately and then attacked the governing body for what they felt was manipulation of the championship battle.

In Renault's post race press release, team boss Flavio Briatore said: "The problem comes when it is not just the sport that influences the outcome of races and championships."

And with Alonso also claiming that he no longer felt F1 was 'a sport', the fall out of the incident generated media coverage that partly overshadowed Michael Schumacher's retirement decision.

The FIA has now reacted to what happened at Monza and will now change the way that incidents are dealt with.

FIA race director Charlie Whiting has written to the teams and told them that the stewards will no longer investigate all complaints of blocking from teams. Instead they will only look at those that he feels shows deliberate intent to impede a rival.

In Whiting's fax, he wrote: "Complaints that a driver has been impeded during qualifying will no longer be referred to the stewards of the meeting. Only in cases where it appears to race control that there has been a clear and deliberate attempt to impede another driver will the stewards be asked to intervene."

And in a sentence aimed clearly at Renault's reaction to what happened at Monza, he added: "We now feel it is pointless for the stewards to engage in long and painstaking enquiries if competitors ignore clear scientific evidence and instead abuse the regulator."

Bit late aren't you FIA, that just takes the micky.

Keiran

On the start: you are seeing things that arent there. I have read of no opinion by anyone that has anything to say that would support your view.

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My point is that the flexi wings took ages before they were removed from the Ferrari. The FIA were stamping down on it yet Ferrari continued to run them without penalty nor threat.

They are still running them, just like anyone else.

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Renault had to remove the mass damper at the click of a finger and were told after that race meeting they'd be allowed to put it back on the car until the court case. So when Renault turn up with the device at Hungary they are forced to remove it as the car failed pre race scruteneering because of it.

You are forgetting that it was the other way round at Hockenheim. Scruteneering is done by the race stewards and not the FIA and of the three stewards two are changed for each race. So it is very much thinkable that the opinion of the non-permanent stewards in Hockenheim and Budapest differed. Nothing the FIA can do about that under the current steward-rules.

I do think, though, that the system used for the stewards is bullshit.

Quote from keiran :

Bit late aren't you FIA, that just takes the micky.

Keiran

At least something is being done about it .

Quote from keiran :

Bit late aren't you FIA, that just takes the micky.

Keiran

Great. By doing this they are admitting that the penalty was wrong. The only fair thing left for them to do now is declare the Monza results erroneous and remove the points gained there from the championship. Yes, I'm serious.

Quote from Hoellsen :

On the start: you are seeing things that arent there. I have read of no opinion by anyone that has anything to say that would support your view.



They are still running them, just like anyone else.



You are forgetting that it was the other way round at Hockenheim. Scruteneering is done by the race stewards and not the FIA and of the three stewards two are changed for each race. So it is very much thinkable that the opinion of the non-permanent stewards in Hockenheim and Budapest differed. Nothing the FIA can do about that under the current steward-rules.

I do think, though, that the system used for the stewards is bullshit.

I'm not `seeing` things he changes direction 3 times and I've already explained at the points where he does. Just need an onboard shot from Schumcaher's car so you can actually see the wheel movements.

Quote from Fisi after race press thingy :

I got a good start and was close to the guys in front. Michael was weaving quite a lot on the track, and the other drivers were having to avoid him

I know some other drivers and teams commented on it but can't remember where I read them. This is the only quote I can find as it was officialy said in the press conference thing.

Ferrari are not still running there flexi wings which were in question. Of course every cars wings are flexing as they'd just break otherwise. It's the way in which the front upper element of Ferrari's wing was breaking apart from the nose cone. Also breaking the rule which states aerodynamic parts must be securely attached to the car.

That's news to me that race stewards do scruteneering. I very much doubt they do considering during qualifying cars are constantly being pulled in to be weighed so would defeat the purpose of the race stewards who should be monitoring the on track action.

Quote from BigDave2967][/SIZE]At least something is being done about it

Doing what? Max Mosley was adamant that they had made the right decision and there was no question about it, now they've gone back on that decision.

They should be at least publicly apologising to Renault.

Keiran

Quote from keiran :

Bit late aren't you FIA, that just takes the micky.

Keiran

This is the same as changing the cutting rule after Hungary. illepall

Quote from DethMag :

Actually that IS a clip from the 95 race at Spa...it's easy to tell when you know your car shapes

1994 Williams had a "low nose" as is cleary seen in the Adelaide clip (last race of the season) whereas the Williams in that vid is of a "high nose" configuration that Williams didn't adopt until the 1995 season after it had been so successful on the '94 Benetton

In fact the last top team to run a "low nose" was Ferrari at the start of '96 when Schumi joined them, only for them to change it after a few races of Hill/Villeneuve dominance

Okay that explains why the commentator knew about the future ;p