Quote from tristancliffe :

He often does - a win by two seconds is much better than a win by 30 seconds if you've got loads of life left in your engine. Alonso on the other hand had the revs turned up quite a lot until the very last few laps, so I know which engine I'd put my money on expiring at Suzuka.

Totally agree, he had to chase in case the Chin made a slight mistake and those seconds he'd gained in chasing proved vital.... but at the cost of his engine for the next race.... especially if it's a hot one.

Schumi didn't exactly lose his lead because he couldn't push it any harder, but why risk your lead by pushing if you know you can go 1-1.5 secs slower every lap and still maintain a lead?

He 'lost' his lead because Alonso was pushing and he was not, not because he (Schumacher) couldn't compete in terms of laptimes, but because he had a lot to lose if he decided to push the car to mainain a 'worthless' lead. After all, whether you win by lapping everyone ten times or finishing just 3 seconds ahead of #2, ten points is ten points.

Push while you're in the lead and that's where you start making mistakes, Schumacher is experienced enough to maintain his lead with minimal effort down to the final lap.

Professional racing isn't about constantly pushing yourself to the best laptimes no matter what, that would be crazy.

is that his engine's 1st or 2nd race ?

It was the first race for both of them. Assuming neither is changed for Suzuka, both will go to Brazil with a fresh engine.

Quote from Vykos69 :

keiran: Alonso wanted new tires, that's what he and his team said. Cause they were worn down. So this was his "wrong" decision in the first place which caused the bad balance after it. Even if they discussed it in the team etc.

Besides that, I dont know if you have seen him drive, but in extraordinary surroundings he kills his fronts more than any other driver, and he's the one driver who needs the TC the most. I just dont like that style, and I am happy, that drivers with more smooth feel for the car show in those extraordinary circumstances, that they are superior.
Alonso for me is like an AI. Coded for a typical range of weather. If the real weather goes outside this, he's dropping down in terms of performance.

the last pitstop - even if made faster - wouldnt have helped him to get MS, cause MS was clearly slowing down in last 5 laps, and being about 0.5 to 1 sec faster isnt enough to overtake.

Alonso was so pissed, cause he knew, that it was part his mistake, to want new tires etc. Why dont you accept, what he says?

I'm so looking forward to next season, when those "I hate schu, that's why I love eyebrows" guys will get a good time by hoping for a Race-lasting McLaren :P

When did I say it wasn't Alonso's fault on changing the front tyres? You blamed his driving style not his decision making, so you've changed your tune.

The team and him came to the decision and if you had read what he said they thought the tyres were too bald to continue for another 15-20laps and that the new set would come to him within a few laps. Two laps latter the team decided after viewing the laptimes and feedback from Alonso to leave Fisis on. Alonsos and Fisis front tyres from the TV images were in similar conditions, yet in 15-20laps Alonso had gone 20odd seconds quicker. So Fisi must eat front tyres if they are in a similar condition to Alonsos and he goes slower...

LOL Alonso is amazing in the wet. His style certainly rewards him well in wet conditions where the car understeers a lot more, he really works the heat into the front wets something he showed when he was the first one out on dry tyres. He was the only driver who pushed the car and it showed.

Hungary GP - Alonso dominates the opening laps with his terrible driving style
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnm6BAcpEXE

The argument of Alonso needing the most TC is pathetic as well, the fastest laps are done when TC isn't bogging the car down. Besides that Alonso has raced many, many racing cars without TC and I bet F1 was probably the place he first drove a car with TC.

You do realise that Alonso's first year in F1 was without TC? And he drove that Minardi fantastically.

Alonso would still have been in with a shout of winning, he was catching the whole last 20laps or so and at an incredible rate. He looked the most comfortable driver out there setting new fastest sectors and laps on his way, his consistency was amazing.

My question still stands and you've yet to answer it, you name a race where he has been responsible for `killing` his front tyres. He managed to make his tyres last whole races last year and was one of the most consistent drivers of the grid.


On the topic of Button, meh. He will need a car advantage to ever become a champion. His race craft when it comes to defending is so poor, may as well pull over and wave them past. He was very lucky that the Honda B team driver just managed to "forget" to let Nick passed and held him up nearly the whole lap.

If Schumacher slowed in the final 20laps then he is very lucky that the rain didn't come a few minutes later as he'd have just throwen away a race victory, thus I don't believe Schumacher didn't push up till the last few laps. I doubt there will be any problems with Alonso's engine next race, cool conditions and it was only reving to between 18-19k,the usual for a race. It's amazing how people change there tune, "oh Montoya is such an idiot he should have pushed Alonso right to the end of the race, he might have won it" Yet when someone does do it he turns out to be an idiot... Had Schumacher had a problem or made a mistake he may have taken the win, something they had to push for.

Keiran

Well, after this year neither Schumi or Alonso will win another championship, so it's the swansong for both of them.

Alonso seems to kill his rear tyres actually. This is probably by having bucket loads of understeer and a very aggressive TC set up. This probably causes the tyres to load/unload in such a way that knackers them. Iirc he ruined his rears at a couple of races last year, and a couple this year too.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Well, after this year neither Schumi or Alonso will win another championship, so it's the swansong for both of them.

Alonso seems to kill his rear tyres actually. This is probably by having bucket loads of understeer and a very aggressive TC set up. This probably causes the tyres to load/unload in such a way that knackers them. Iirc he ruined his rears at a couple of races last year, and a couple this year too.

So in these races why does Fisi also knacker his rear tyres?

I can't remember a race where Alonso has suffered rear tyre problems and Fisi hasn't.

I wouldn't count out McLaren they've won before and they can do so again. They have the money to throw at it and you never know the new group of drivers, most likely Lewis joining Fernando they might have a bit more motivation.

When you hear the rough budgets it's amazing to see Renaults which is like pocket money to there competitors. Haven't heard anything this year but last years showed how well Renault worked to do what they did on the budget they had.

I'm hoping for a strong RBR challenge next year, Coulthard for the championship

Quote from keiran :

My question still stands and you've yet to answer it, you name a race where he has been responsible for `killing` his front tyres. He managed to make his tyres last whole races last year and was one of the most consistent drivers of the grid.

china, first stint. It was his impression, that he killed the tires, and needed new. And I honestly think (from the looks) that he actually really killed them

Oh.. Hockenheim this year. remember? it was too hot for the michelins, and bang: alonso was the michelin with the biggest probs. fisicho, kimi, button been faster.

Besides that, I simply DONT like the fact, that this style is fast. Cause it isnt imho as skillful as Kimi, fisicho, button, michael handle their cars, and go smooth around the corners. I also do hope that this will show up even more in next year, with same tires everywhere, a new car for him and prolly his teammate (if it will be hamilton), and that will end in some probs for him (beside the biggest prob of merc reliability).

when seeing button or especially Kimi LIVE, being able to watch every lap how he turns in and moves the car, made me really really apreciate his skills. This great skill should be honoured asap with a championship imho.

Quote from Vykos69 :

china, first stint. It was his impression, that he killed the tires, and needed new. And I honestly think (from the looks) that he actually really killed them

Oh.. Hockenheim this year. remember? it was too hot for the michelins, and bang: alonso was the michelin with the biggest probs. fisicho, kimi, button been faster.

Besides that, I simply DONT like the fact, that this style is fast. Cause it isnt imho as skillful as Kimi, fisicho, button, michael handle their cars, and go smooth around the corners. I also do hope that this will show up even more in next year, with same tires everywhere, a new car for him and prolly his teammate (if it will be hamilton), and that will end in some probs for him (beside the biggest prob of merc reliability).

when seeing button or especially Kimi LIVE, being able to watch every lap how he turns in and moves the car, made me really really apreciate his skills. This great skill should be honoured asap with a championship imho.

Post race conference with Pat:

Q: The crucial call came at Fernando's first stop, when you decided to change both front tyres. How did you make that decision?
PS: As always with these things, it was a team decision. Fernando radioed in to say that the front left tyre was very badly worn. He makes good judgement calls, and we are very confident in the information he gives us. On the pit-wall, we knew that changing to new tyres would carry a performance penalty as he went through a phase of graining and the tyres scrubbed in, but we did not expect it to be anything like as bad as it proved. We simply got it wrong.

Q: Fernando, no doubt a frustrating day for you: that large lead in the early phase of the race and it all changed for you when you changed the fronts at the first pit stop.
Fernando Alonso: Yeah, we had a good start and a good 15 or 20 laps and then we decided to change the front tyres because it was nearly a slick tyre, the left front, and that didn’t turn out to be a good thing to do because Giancarlo and Michael left their tyres and they caught me really quickly, and the gap disappeared. After that, we were at a disadvantage. We took the risk, we obviously pitted and we tried to put on dry tyres to try and find a miracle but it was too late.

Why this is still continuing god only knows If you want I'll go find pictures off the net from both Fisi's and Alonso's pitstops, the tyres were in much and such the same condition. The only thing that went wrong was a bad call from Alonso and the team, shit happens. Everyone makes mistakes, the team and Alonso probably thought they had enough of a gap to justify taking a risk but it just didn't work.

I just can't understand this `Alonso kills tyres` remarks when he has driven like that for years. He made his tyres last full GPs last year and if memory serves me right the only tyre killer that year was Kimi when he put a major flat spot on it and in turn broke the suspension.

Watching onboard Alonso's car is awesome and especially in battles with other drivers. It's yet to hamper his career and he has won many championships with it and that includes an F1 title.

I've admired Kimi's driving style for years but I find your reason so pathetic for disliking Alonsos. If his style is fast what's wrong with that? If we all acted the same and did everything the same there wouldn't be a point in competing. Alonso looks very in control of his car all the time, he is the only driver that really hangs the thing out on the warm-up lap yet he hasn't spun doing so.

I just can't understand why you can't accept that this is the way Alonso drives and it works for him. You don't have to like his style but to say that you don't like how he can driver fast like that is a bit pathetic. Guess it's actually a compliment to him since it seems an impossible task to drive like he does, quickly judging by your posts . He has got himself up the F1 ladder quicker than Button has and in turn got stastics that Button can only dream of having.

Your exaggerating slightly about Hockenheim illepall 6 seconds behind Button and about 10 seconds behind Kimi. So for `big` tyre trouble as you put it then he did damn well to stay that close. So far for the guy whos `always got tyre troubles`, you could only come up with one race.

You don't get to where Alonso is or any WDC without driving skill and talent.

Quote from BigDave2967 :

Do you have evidence based on this?

http://formula-1.updatesport.c ... -out-at-Renault/view.html

Quote :

'AS' newspaper quoted Alonso as saying: ''They wanted us to finish second and third because they do not want me to take the number one to a different team.''

Quote :

'AS' newspaper quoted Alonso as saying: ''They wanted us to finish second and third because they do not want me to take the number one to a different team.''

WOWWWW....! If he has seriously said that, that is BIG.

How to motivate your team, what-not-to-do #432 - "Insult their motives".

Every time Alonso does ANYTHING I keep getting the same 'this guy really isn't anything special' feeling. I know Kieran thinks differently (but supporting Coulthard would make Taki Inoue look special), but I just don't rate Alonso that highly. Sure he's good, but he's not Schumi's replacement imo.

Quote from TheDeppchef :

http://formula-1.updatesport.c ... -out-at-Renault/view.html

And that shows one of the things that Schumacher is tops in: leadership and being a team player; getting his team's act together and motivating them.

All the other kiddies just whine about their team being so bad to them it's pathetic. With MSC atleast you hear him saying "we" whenever he refers to Ferrari (same when he was in Benetton) and he never says "they" (the team) and "I" (the driver). Well, guess what, with that sort of mentallity ofcourse your team won't help you...

Would all those who believe that Jenson Button's driving style is the smoothest there is and that it's all stupid Alonso's fault for burning out his tyres please read the following article:

http://www.itv-f1.com/Feature. ... d_Kravitz&PO_ID=37573

Of particular interest is the following paragraph:

Quote :

The team had to move the stop forward, as Jenson’s set-up and driving style burned out the intermediate tyres, rendering them useless.

Humble pie, anyone?

Quote from xaotik :

And that shows one of the things that Schumacher is tops in: leadership and being a team player; getting his team's act together and motivating them.

All the other kiddies just whine about their team being so bad to them it's pathetic. With MSC atleast you hear him saying "we" whenever he refers to Ferrari (same when he was in Benetton) and he never says "they" (the team) and "I" (the driver). Well, guess what, with that sort of mentallity ofcourse your team won't help you...

yep, good point.

Oh, still wondering here, why no one starts moaning about Renault team-order in china. Maybe cause there was no such sentence as "Giancarlo, let fernando pass for the championship, let fernando pass for the championship" :P Or maybe just the fact, that it's not Ferrari... :P

keiran, have you seen alonso drive live once? And if you dont like to see the fact, that in extreme circumstances (really hot, strange wet-to-dry weather or any different weather) he messes it up. Always with his style of driving, then go on. From the ppov of ergonomic and smooth driving, he simply sux big time.

Maybe he didn't have enough front wing, and Jensons method of coping with extra understeer isn't particularly nice to tyres? Clearly his 'normal' style, with a decent setup, doesn't eat tyres. Maybe one day the article will say 'Fernando Alonso, with a poor setup and his driving style, melted his rear tyres', because Fernando's lean on the front and hope the back sticks method is particularly poor with oversteer.

Who knows - I could be right, you could be right, neither of us could be. We just don't know enough what 'Jenson's setup [problem]' was, nor which aspect of his style failed to help.

keiran, just if you dont trust anyone: here's another link to another page with that news about how the great sportsman alonso talks about his team.

http://f1.racing-live.com/f1/e ... detail/061003093224.shtml Or is it again someone elses fault? Still a great sportsman? Yeah, sure....

Quote from thisnameistaken :

It might be because there's only a few races to go and Ferrari have had an obvious car/tyre advantage since Canada.

Not so obvious really. Atleast in the tyre department.

Quote :

Ferrari's team orders came in for criticism in 2002 when Rubens was told to move over and let Michael win in Austria when Michael already had a very comfortable championship lead.

Indeed, the total lack of style in the way that was done was revolting.

I find it hilarious that Alonso now tries to blame his team.
If they only wanted the cunstructors title...wouldnt it have made sense to give no teamorders, let Fischi pass Alonso when he was having his tire problems. And have Alonso hold up MSC for a few laps.
That would probably have resulted in a 1st(fischi) and 3rd(Alonso) place ,thus netting more points then 2nd and 3rd.
Fischi lost alot of time driving behind alonso, which imo was the cause of schumacher passing him later on after his pitstop.

Alonso seems to think he is the best driver in the world, and every decision or mistake that doesnt help him must be part of some conspiracy.
I'd be ok with it if he thought like that..but it is a clear sign of immaturity and arrogance to spew accusations in the press every time something goes wrong.


edit : tbh i now hope Renault is so offended by his comments that they actually do as he says from now on. And forget to refuel his car after Q2 or "mistakenly" reduce his front wingangle by 3extra clicks when he comes in for a pitstop. =)

I wonder what Alonso will say next year when the Mercedes just can't make it two races a row

Quote :

What would be the point in being on the starting grid for a formula 1 race if you didn't think you were the best driver in the world?

Seems u missed the important part of my post Kev.

namely this part :

" Alonso seems to think he is the best driver in the world, and every decision or mistake that doesnt help him must be part of some conspiracy.
I'd be ok with it if he thought like that..but it is a clear sign of immaturity and arrogance to spew accusations in the press every time something goes wrong."

And isnt Ralf Schumacher still in F1, i dont imagine he still thinks he is better then Michael after all those years. Yet he still is a driver thats valued by quite a few teams and does a better job then some other drivers.

btw, quick question, can drivers talk to there teammates over the radio, and if so, are they allowed to like say "drive on through alonso", etc..

Yes, hes a very communicative guy. Another reason to be for him more than for Schumacher.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

Noccy: I didn't miss that part of your post, I just didn't reply to it.

I don't want to get drawn into fighting Alonso's corner because I don't really care about him. I don't like Michael - I think he's a complete tosser and I think his team cheats and I think the FIA grants them unfair advantages whenever it sees fit - but I still don't really want to be on Alonso's "side".

Okay so u just wanted to make a cheap quote; quoting one third of a sentence; to look good?

I can do that too

Quote :

What would be the point in being on the starting grid for a formula 1 race

What would be the point of not starting in F1 if u can earn lots of money and drive the most advanced cars in the world?


And to continue on the best driver thing..
So u think Yamamoto, Albers, Rosberg, De La Rossa, Doornbos, Speed, etc all consider themselves to be the best drivers in F1. Even if it's their first year in a F1 raceseat and they still need alot of experience.

I think they know they still have alot to learn and that the top guys in F1 would beat them in the same car.
Sure they need alot of confidence in their own ability, but that is not the same as thinking u are the best driver in the world ,or is it?