Anyone else out there longing for FFB on brake and clutch pedals?

How cool would it be if the GTR cars had snathcy clutches and needed lots of revs to get off the line. Just like in real life.

Ask Logitech. Or any of the custom pedal manufacturers.

all you need is a heavy clutch with very small travel and you have a realistic clutch pedal. you dont actually feel anything through the clutch pedal.

for the brake all you need is a solid pedal (that moves about 1cm) and you have a realistic brake. you dont feel anything through the brake pedal either unless the car has ABS, then you feel a vibration when you brake too hard.

Quote from nikimere :

all you need is a heavy clutch with very small travel and you have a realistic clutch pedal. you dont actually feel anything through the clutch pedal.

for the brake all you need is a solid pedal (that moves about 1cm) and you have a realistic brake. you dont feel anything through the brake pedal either unless the car has ABS, then you feel a vibration when you brake too hard.

No. I actually want FFB brake and clutches. So that when you lock the brakes you can feel it through the pedal just like in a real car (i.e. my Golf which does not have ABS). In fact, you can feel it just before it locks. And to actually have FFB on the clutch. As I said, so that different cars have clucthes that feel different. GTRs have light flywheels and race clutches. They need more revs because there is no momentum of the flywheel so they will stall really quick if you don't have enough revs on. And the biting point on a race clutch is much smaller than an ordinary clutch. I'd like to see all this modelled in a driving sim one day.

I think you missed my point a bit.

I'm pretty sure that you can feel some vibrations through the brake pedal when you are braking on uneven surface. By uneven surface I mean something like very small and constant, yet small "bumps". Like those rumble lines painted as sidelines on motorways. And these can be felt if you brake when your front wheel is on sych line lol (explanation sucks )

But it is very delicate and useless information because it doesn't tell you anything important. I haven't driven a race car but one would think that a racecar has stiffer brake "pipes" so the vibrations could be even more pronounced than in a normal car.

So () imho there is hardly any need for such system.

Unless the car has abs brakes but even then it would require pressure based brake pedal before it could be anything more than just vibrating brake pedal.

EDIT: But as Gentlefoot suggests above, normal cars have different pedals (different feel) than racecars, and there can be huge differences even between 2 racecars. So if you think this a bit further, a FF pedals is the only way to simulate these different pedal systems if realism is the highest aim. If you have travel based brake and clutch pedal, you are already using quite different controls than you use in real cars. To get realistic Formula V8 brake pedal and XRT brake pedal with some mechanism in one system - it will be quite a task. Because, as stated above, normal cars have lots of free play in the brake pedal befoire it really kicks in, while in race all this play has been minimized.

Well, it needet a long time to get at least one truely real FFB-Wheel.

It came from VPP and it costs atm more than 1k€, so everyone is crying, thats to much money. You can buy Pedals too, but they are also expensive.

So what do u think would cost a set of pedals wit so solid motors, that you can step on them without them breaking into pieces.

I think, it would be faaaaar too much money, that anyone would buy those pedals.

afaik Logitech are making some, for release soon...

ok i see what you mean about the clutches, different pedal travel and biting points for different cars. good idea, but not reall Force Feedback.

Anyway i still stand by my point that you cant (at least i never have felt anything in all the real races i've ever done) feel anything through the brake pedal, except in ABS cars and when your pedal gets spongy(*spelling*) during a long race.

Quote from nikimere :

ok i see what you mean about the clutches, different pedal travel and biting points for different cars. good idea, but not reall Force Feedback.

Anyway i still stand by my point that you cant (at least i never have felt anything in all the real races i've ever done) feel anything through the brake pedal, except in ABS cars and when your pedal gets spongy(*spelling*) during a long race.

I can feel it when the wheels just begin to 'chirp'. At that point you know anymore pressure and they will lock. Maybe it's just my Golf. I did fit braided hoses which helped with brake feel.

Quote from Gentlefoot :

I can feel it when the wheels just begin to 'chirp'. At that point you know anymore pressure and they will lock. Maybe it's just my Golf. I did fit braided hoses which helped with brake feel.

And you felt that through the brake pedal? You know, something pushing back the brake pads, which transfers to the brake fluid which transfers to the pedal and your foot? Or was it maybe just the whole car vibrating and you started to feel it on the brake pedal?

Quote from AndroidXP :

And you felt that through the brake pedal? You know, something pushing back the brake pads, which transfers to the brake fluid which transfers to the pedal and your foot? Or was it maybe just the whole car vibrating and you started to feel it on the brake pedal?

In short, yes I feel through the pedal itself.

Have you never driven a car where the pads are down to the metal? Could you not feel the roughness of the pad backing material against the disk through the pedal? This is the movement of the pad against the disk "which transfers to the brake fluid which transfers to the pedal and my foot".

I can feel allsorts through my alfa brake pedal too. I've got grooved disks and I can feel the grooves as I brake. I reckon fixed as apposed to floating calipers make a big difference too.

tbh I don't care if you can feel anything or not. I can. Even more so when I'm wearing thin race boots.

I'm under the same impression as Gentlefoot. There's of course a specific feel to each car due to the characteristics of the brake disc (used, new?) and brake pads, which you usually only notice when braking hard (like, decelerate from 200km/h to 80km/h to safe your life on the highway, or on a racetrack). And when the brakes are close to locking up the brake pads are making the transition from dynamic friction to static friction, which should be (as I understand it) noticable in a (very small) decrease in distance between brake pads and disc.
(In all cases only a part of the brake pads touch the disc due to the natural roughness of the material. Under dynamic friction this portion should be smaller than under static friction.)

Many of the things you feel through the brake pedal are specifc to the car. It's a bit like a fingerprint of the car.

@Force-feedback pedals: There's a lot torque involved in a brake pedal or clutch. Some clutches are so hard it's physically difficult for some persons to drive the car for longer than 15 minutes (witnessed that myself). How do you get such an amount of torque if not from a hydraulic system?

Vain

Quote from Gentlefoot :

Have you never driven a car where the pads are down to the metal?

No, and I don't plan to. You know, I kinda like my life.

But even if you take the grooves into account, how would an almost locking tyre change the forces acting on the brake pads? I mean, if at all, the vibrating would get lower because th grooves don't zip by as fast, or the vibrating would stop when the tyres are locked.

I don't want to question your experiences, rather I'd just like to understand the mechanical reason for feeling anything in the brake when the tyre is about to lock up.

E: Ah okay, Vain had a reasonable answer, I guess.

Quote from nikimere :

ok i see what you mean about the clutches, different pedal travel and biting points for different cars. good idea, but not reall Force Feedback.

Anyway i still stand by my point that you cant (at least i never have felt anything in all the real races i've ever done) feel anything through the brake pedal, except in ABS cars and when your pedal gets spongy(*spelling*) during a long race.

But force feedback is basically the only way to create, for example, infinite different biting points for clutch pedal. Mechanisms are always limited by their design and would probably require some adjusting (if they are not something like servo controlled) when you want something different. Of course force feedback pedals would require support from the software, which could be problematic with some older games.

Or the other option could be to have 3 different pedal systems. One 3-pedal system for normal road cars, one for 3-pedal system for racing cars and one 2-pedal system for modern racing cars.

Quote from AndroidXP :

No, and I don't plan to. You know, I kinda like my life.

But even if you take the grooves into account, how would an almost locking tyre change the forces acting on the brake pads? I mean, if at all, the vibrating would get lower because th grooves don't zip by as fast, or the vibrating would stop when the tyres are locked.

I don't want to question your experiences, rather I'd just like to understand the mechanical reason for feeling anything in the brake when the tyre is about to lock up.

E: Ah okay, Vain had a reasonable answer, I guess.

You can feel when the tyre is about to lock because when the wheel is turning it creates a feel through the pedal of the rubber 'rolling over' the surface. On the other hand, when the wheel is locked the tyre is 'sliding across' the surface if the tarmac. The two situations feel completely different to me.

Quote from Gentlefoot :

You can feel when the tyre is about to lock because when the wheel is turning it creates a feel through the pedal of the rubber 'rolling over' the surface. On the other hand, when the wheel is locked the tyre is 'sliding across' the surface if the tarmac. The two situations feel completely different to me.

so you can feel the rubber compound in the tyres deforming/wearing through the brake pedal... i'm sorry but thats just not possible. Maybe your feeling something through the steering wheel but definately not through the brake pedal!

the two situations feel completely different because the cars travels faster when your wheels lock than it does before they lock. also your steering wheel will jerk or go light. these are how it feels different, not through the brake pedal.

Quote from nikimere :

so you can feel the rubber compound in the tyres deforming/wearing through the brake pedal... i'm sorry but thats just not possible. Maybe your feeling something through the steering wheel but definately not through the brake pedal!

Tell me why that is impossible.

The tyre is attached to the wheel, the wheel is attached to the hub. the disk is attached to the hub, the pads are in contact with the disk, the piston is in contact with the pads, therefore it can be felt through the pedal!

Quote from Gentlefoot :

Tell me why that is impossible.

The tyre is attached to the wheel, the wheel is attached to the hub. the disk is attached to the hub, the pads are in contact with the disk, therefore it can be felt through the pedal!

The brake pads are against the brake disks. If the disk doesn't change its thickness, there won't be anything to move the brake pad. And if the brake pad doesn't move, the brake fluids don't move. And if the brake fluids don't move, it means that the pedal won't move.

Only thing I can think is that if the whole tire et all vibrates -> the vibrations of the brake disc cause the brake pads to vibrate -> brake fluids "vibrate" (also dampening the vibration) -> brake pedal vibrates.

Quote from Gentlefoot :

Tell me why that is impossible.

The tyre is attached to the wheel, the wheel is attached to the hub. the disk is attached to the hub, the pads are in contact with the disk, the piston is in contact with the pads, therefore it can be felt through the pedal!

because the tiny tiny tiny vibration that would be cause by the rubber compound actually moving have to travel through way too many mediums which would absorb the vibrations before it actually reaches your pedal. let alone your nerves in your foot trying to pick it up through your race boot/shoe and separating it from the other vibrations within the car.

this kind of reminds me of this story: http://www.surlalunefairytales.com/princesspea/index.html

Quote from nikimere :

because the tiny tiny tiny vibration that would be cause by the rubber compound actually moving have to travel through way too many mediums which would absorb the vibrations before it actually reaches your pedal. let alone your nerves in your foot trying to pick it up through your race boot/shoe and separating it from the other vibrations within the car.

this kind of reminds me of this story: http://www.surlalunefairytales.com/princesspea/index.html

By too many mediums that absorb the vibration you mean?

The only medium that will absorb vibration is the fluid because all the others are metal components that aren't going to absorb any vibrations at all.

Clearly the fluid doesn't absorb all vibrations as we wouldn't feel changes in the road surface or the grooves in the disks through the brake pedal. But we have already accepted (I thought so at least) that this could be felt.

maybe i have a partially numb foot or something...
the physics behind it all may say that you can feel a vibration (a tiny vibration) through the brake pedal. but how on earth when your car is vibrating like mad because of the engine and bumps on the track (amounst other things) can you distinguish this movement? the most a pad would move is a couple of millimeters most of this is going to be absorbed along the way to the pedal then your boot and sock are going to absorb some too.

Quote from nikimere :

maybe i have a partially numb foot or something...
the physics behind it all may say that you can feel a vibration (a tiny vibration) through the brake pedal. but how on earth when your car is vibrating like mad because of the engine and bumps on the track (amounst other things) can you distinguish this movement? the most a pad would move is a couple of millimeters most of this is going to be absorbed along the way to the pedal then your boot and sock are going to absorb some too.

Guess I must have sensitive feet.

Quote from Gentlefoot :

Guess I must have sensitive feet.

Perhaps you should change your username to Tenderfoot?

lol!

The only thing I can feel through the brake pedal is warped rotors or hot spots. That causes vibration in the pedal. Also, if you overheat the brakes and have brake fade. But that is more of a pressure sensitive thing, rather than feeling in the brake pedal. What we need more is pressure sensitive pedals rather than force feedback. Though, force feedback would help in the brake fade aspect. With FF, you still need to have a deflection of the pedal on an axis such as what we have now which is completely wrong in realistic feel.

My squashball wedged tightly under my pedal of my momos help with a more pressure sensitive brake using very high brake force in the setup. But it is of my opinion, for the cost associated with doing it, force feedback is not neccessary at all for pedals.

On the clutch side, you don't feel anything either. It is the feeling in your rear end that tells you where the bite of the clutch is, not feeling in the clutch. For clutch, since it is a large deflection of the pedal, a heavy spring is all that is needed.