I found this short video showing the 2006 Monza GP warm-up lap:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nv0PU_wwoKE

You can see how some drivers are forcing wheelspin to warm up the tyres, and while they are doing that they steer hard left and right in a quick manner. Still they don't loose control of their car.

My problem is: when i try to imitate this maneuvers with the BF1 in LFS, i end up in a wall and with a broken front wing. Once the BF1 starts sliding it's gone for good.

However i'm not very experienced with the BF1, so i wonder if anyone else is actually able to reproduce this kind of driving in LFS?

Of course i can't say how close the BF1 in LFS is to driving a real F1 car, but the handling at low speeds feels too diffucult to me.

Heres one more video showing a warm up lap from the on-board cam:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuUp6EBW8mw

It is nearly impossible to do this warming technique. And yeah, the BF1 has a very strange loss of grip when doing it, and even when in slow corners.

I never liked the BF1 specifically for this reason... it just slides ridiculously (mostly out of driver's control) at many speeds.

The other thing to remember with the BF1 is at slow speeds you have NO downforce and an insane amount of power and the car is light.

You will find that an F1 driver can feel far more about what the car is doing under them than you do in LFS where a FF wheel is your only feedback.

I would say that when they do the quick wiggle the are close to spin out but the extra feel they have allows them to get the balance right unlike in LFS.

Also as Tweaker pointed out most sims suffer low speed grip issues as this normally requires a different physics model to when tires are at speed.

Also, they are quite simply better drivers than us, so they can do crazy things we can't, even if our physics/grip/downforce were modelling 100% perfectly.

I can sometimes pull it off a bit (I enjoy doing F1 style warm up laps in the Sauber more than actually racing it), but it usually ends up with me in an out-of-control slide onto the grass at somepoint.

I think they're probably driving slower IRL than you would feel comfortable doing in LFS when they're doing that (what, 50ks?); and only on straights--not in mid-corner. I find it pretty easy to reproduce--and even wilder than they would dare IRL.

P.S. maybe because I'm a mouse driver? ...

P.P.S. TEST DRIVE III FTW!!

Quote from tristancliffe :

Also, they are quite simply better drivers than us, so they can do crazy things we can't, even if our physics/grip/downforce were modelling 100% perfectly.

Personally, I think that is a load of crock. It's obvious the BF1 has grip issues, and the TC is extremely annoying, why should the driver be at fault for not making it possible? If you just watch what the F1 drivers are doing, all they do is shake the steering violently, sometimes even using moderate throttle. Off-throttle oversteer isn't even as prevalent when they do this.... whereas in LFS if you do the same thing by bursting the accelerator, and letting off while shaking the steering violently, it just reacts way too much to the g-forces. If you see when they do it in a real F1 car, they drop the throttle and their head moves forward, but they can keep the car going 'straight' even while rapidly steering side to side. This should be possible in LFS, but it isn't.

You cannot even do this technique with the slightest amount and not slide out beyond your control. If LFS had 100% accurate physics, you'd at least be able to pull it off with practice, it can't be that hard. The car is capable of such snappy moves, why can't the BF1 in LFS do the same? In this case with the BF1, it's not the driver :rolleyes:

Why is this somehow surprising, now 8 months after the April patch? Just another way to show that tyre physics needs more work. I don't think BF1 alone has a grip issue, it's the tyre physics that has issues.

I'm not saying it's just driver skill that's the issue. I'm well aware, and always have been, that ANY tyre simulation isn't perfect, and LFS still has a fair way to go before it can be called finished.

But the fact is to snake an 800hp 500kg car THAT violently and remain in control does probably take rather more skill than your average joe. Maybe you are different Tweak, as I happen to know how good you are at LFS (having seen your name above mine more than enough times). Without the feeling of connectedness I think we'd find it harder than them no matter how good our tyres ever became.

Montoya is a good example. A stunningly gifted driver (although he was out of his depth in F1), yet he still spun on parade laps more than once. You can't blame that on physics, or even the car (his being the same as Kimi's at the time, and no 'TC fault' was reported to my knowledge) - it was simply because he asked a bit too much of his car and it got away from him, thus proving that it can't be an easy thing to do. I wish I had his car control skills in real life, but even then I would expect such driving to be 'easy'.

Maybe I'm wrong (which I often am), but I think that the driving has a lot more to blame than most people feel comfortable admitting.

I thought they used another TC setting for that purpose.

Not sure exactly who originally posted this but anyway, see for yourself.

I think it is a lot easier when you use specific diff settings and very minimal camber on the rears. Still, the car acts a bit funky, it still isn't as fast as you'd see done in real warmup laps though. It's as if the grip loss is very gradual and doesn't have the bite at certain extremes.

Quote from Tweaker :

I think it is a lot easier when you use specific diff settings and very minimal camber on the rears. Still, the car acts a bit funky, it still isn't as fast as you'd see done in real warmup laps though. It's as if the grip loss is very gradual and doesn't have the bite at certain extremes.

Another thing to take into account is looksteer if you use it. Turn it off and try it. Looksteer gives a very different perception on what the car is actually doing than locking the view forwards..

I tried turning it off a while back to see what it was like. The tires feel like they have more bite and snap to them. You will be shocked how much more bite the tires appear to have.

That said I continue to use looksteer as it just feels more natural.

Never used that setting to my liking, since it loses my perception of when the car is yawing

If I make the car feel very rigid and not have any motion sensory animations at play, you can feel how the car truly acts and understand how weird the tires feel. I am sure if some of the motion things were enabled, I'd probably be more careful (slower) since the car would feel more stable. It's still not to say the g-force effects are the answer to pulling off this warming technique, there still is a bit of discrepancies with the physics at the limits with low speed.... though you do have a point with these effects, they would help prevent more slides perhaps.

also id take a good bet that they alter more than what we can do, in particular different tc settings, engine maps etc all of which are designed to make the car controllable in that one rather specialised circumstance / requirement before changing to race settings at the start, after all how many of us adjust our brake balance corner by corner each lap yet schumacher in particular was well known for using differing brake balance for different bends

if u know how to setup a car and drive it, u can do those warm up moves. thats not saying the reaction of lfs to low load/high longitudinal slipangle/grip output is 100% spot on.

I find it a bit hard to do this warmup with race fuel and setup (see clip to what i mean) but with the right setup i think it is easy to do it

Several factors effecting it as I see:

Firstly LFS physics - weird low speed behaviour, partly due to the tire model but mostly down to the fact that real F1 cars don't use locked diffs.

Then the fact that LFS tires are already pre-heated, F1 tires are only permitted to be wrapped in unheated tire blankets. You'd probably find very different behaviour from heated tires, they should loose grip later at a faster speed obviously with a lot more momentum in the car and may (I really don't have a clue) have different slip characteristics.

Not really sure how much driver skill comes into current F1 sure Schumacher and Alonso and a few others on the grid may be talented but it was not there talent that got them into F1, it's all about having the right connections/sponsorship, if you do it doesn't matter if you can't drive to save your life, look at people like Ralf, Montoya, Sato. They can drive a car fairly fast but that's down to practice and experience in lesser single seaters they can't race to save their lives choosing to bash into anything that moves and occasionally not taking themselves out and being heralded heros for it. On the other hand look how underrated Mansell always was despite the fact he was hugely talented he just had the wrong links to make him invited in F1.

Although its not to do with traction, this thread contains a lot about tyre physics and stuff.

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=202622#post202622

It's too bad though that if you make a setup that is possible to pull this off, it won't have good track performance most likely. And even if you wanted to pull it off for some kind of warmup lap, it wouldn't be a good idea since your tires will heat up massively through all the corners in a race. LFS really doesn't have the "need for heat" issues like real F1 drivers always worry about.

At least I'm lacking lot of thorttle control, feedback of some sort or then my pedal is just too snappy.

Quote from ajp71 :

F1 tires are only permitted to be wrapped in unheated tire blankets

Wrong wrong wrong wrong. F1 are allowed heated tyre blankets (unless that's changed for 2007).

Quote from Test Driver :

I found this short video showing the 2006 Monza GP warm-up lap:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nv0PU_wwoKE

You can see how some drivers are forcing wheelspin to warm up the tyres, and while they are doing that they steer hard left and right in a quick manner. Still they don't loose control of their car.

My problem is: when i try to imitate this maneuvers with the BF1 in LFS, i end up in a wall and with a broken front wing. Once the BF1 starts sliding it's gone for good.

However i'm not very experienced with the BF1, so i wonder if anyone else is actually able to reproduce this kind of driving in LFS?

Of course i can't say how close the BF1 in LFS is to driving a real F1 car, but the handling at low speeds feels too diffucult to me.

Heres one more video showing a warm up lap from the on-board cam:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuUp6EBW8mw

+1. Indeed, that F1 car behaviour in LFS must be very far from real life, it just cant be that unstable to drive.

I don't think the wider tyres do much for grip, or it doesn't adjust enough for wider tyres. If you use LFSTweak and give yourself 900 wide tyres, you can still slide about willy-nilly.

This is what I think the problem with the BF1 is.

I love seeing the F1 cars 'sidestep' around other cars in the blink of an eye. They can strafe about like no-ones business. I've tried doing it in LFS at speed and it seems to slide about, or understeer.

Enough said: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4JDd4V7FEo

Hmm

Montoya lost his car twice with warm tyres tryieng to make that "shakedown" before the Restart. It is not that easy to throw a F1 car around like some LFS drivers seem to think.