Sorry, but that is rubbish mate. The amount of torque a cylinder produces is a product of the force acting over the top of the piston and the stroke of the engine. You can invert the cylinder, sit it horizontally, or have it the right way up and it won't make any difference. Stick them all on random orientations in a big line and it still wouldn't make any difference.

What the configuration allows is control of balancing the engine (inline 3s are near perfectly balanced and inline 6s too, which is why V6s and V12s are so smooth. I4s and F4s are pretty horrid balancing wise etc. The other factor is packaging - and I4 and F4s are easy to stick between the front wheels without intruding too much into the passanger compartment. In motorsport it's often CoG that dictates stuff. Renault's F1 engines (recently) have been wide angle to give a lower CoG, at the expense of vibration characteristics. The Vee angle in now way dictated the power/torque of the engine, which I repeat is a function of the bore/stroke (amonst other things).

Perhaps if you compare some engines of the same bore/stroke/combustion chamber/breathing etc you'll see. The best way is to compare F1 engines of different Vees. Data is available showing the Renault engines have tended to have longer strokes and smaller bores, concentrating or torque rather than power (i.e. it revs less because of the longer stroke (and the peak/mean piston speeds thus caused), but the longer stroke gives more torque for a given piston crown force).

So, before making sweeping statements, think.

Quote from ajp71 :

There's a Dallara F3 car (the one that made your chassis redundant overnight) already running with a Zetec so I guess monocoques are allowed. If you already know what you're doing then you'd probably be better going with the Toyota engine, I don't think your car had a stressed engine like modern F3 cars AFAIK, if it does then obviously you'll have either extensively modify the block. If you're sure everything fits then that will be a very good idea to go for, if there are other cars already running similar engines then that'd be great. If, however, you're effectively going on a wing and a prayer and this is a unique conversion then be prepared for a lot of teething problems (be prepared for them anyway) and you'd probably be better off leaving it as it is and taking it historic racing, though it is pricey, or selling it and getting another single seater better suited to your task, also remember a carbon tub seems like a great idea until you bend it, spaceframes can be repaired easily with welding gear and a little know how, oh yeah and tank tape bodywork.

Number one rule is to take it testing and bed it in properly, money well spent, too many people try to skip a simple test session, a race meeting practice session is not a substitute and soon gets expensive when you've spent £250 to find out you've missed something obvious.

The advantage of the Zetecs is they've been widely used so you can go and buy a competitive engine off the shelf (well in theory at least)although that does disadvantage people who don't have as much money to throw at it and they're relatively unstressed and reliable

Yes, our engine is semi-stressed (A-Frames take some of the load straight to the gearbox, but some is taken by the engine), and yes the mounting points are all the same, so it really is a bolt in job when we've rebuilt it. Might have to make a few new brackets as not every hole is in the same place for ancilliaries, but nothing too major. The biggest 'problem' is that the new crank has a longer nose than the F3 crank, so we're going to have to shorten it and use a narrower pulley (possibly stealing the F3 one for the time being). Not a HUGE problem, but the biggest we face at the moment. Oh, and someone at work distorted the cam cover welding on a few bits - fool!

There's another Toyota powered car in Mono, although he uses a version that has variable valve timing - something banned (even if altered to fixed cam) in Mono - so we're saving that to get him kicked out mid-season if we're vaguely near his points

Don't worry, we're not making it up entirely as we go along. We've found clever people who have done 'similar' things before, or worked on the 3S-GE engine before, or who worked on F3 cars in that era... But not knowing for sure is part of the fun

I'm sure Zetec has a lot going for it. But modifying mountings, changing 'box adaptor plates, changes of wheelbase, cooling system... just a bit too much hassle for us. Maybe one day in the future, when we want a change of scene.

P.S. My ARDS test is booked for the 25th of January, at Silverstone. Yippee!

Quote from tristancliffe :

Sorry, but that is rubbish mate. The amount of torque a cylinder produces is a product of the force acting over the top of the piston and the stroke of the engine. You can invert the cylinder, sit it horizontally, or have it the right way up and it won't make any difference. Stick them all on random orientations in a big line and it still wouldn't make any difference.

A couple of examples of this are radial engines and IIRC there was a German WW2 reconnaissance aircraft that had an inverted V8 for packing reasons.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Yes, our engine is semi-stressed (A-Frames take some of the load straight to the gearbox, but some is taken by the engine), and yes the mounting points are all the same, so it really is a bolt in job when we've rebuilt it.

Well I can't quite visualize exactly how that's working but if the engine block is acting as a stressed component of the chassis you really need to check that the new block is ok because normally a stressed engine will require a substantially strengthened block although I guess your car is effectively an unstressed engine because that's what the F3 car running in 750 F4 must be to run a standard Zetec block. What you really don't want to find out though is that the difference between the TOMs block and your new block is that's ones designed to be stressed that would be an expensive mistake

Some amazing TristanArt to help visualise it coming up...

Edit: here it is



Edit2: The damaged monocoque in the picture isn't how it is, but how it might become if I'm let loose in it.

Also, are you looking for a promotion in the sadness ratings?

Quote from tristancliffe :

Some amazing TristanArt to help visualise it coming up...

Edit: here it is

http://www.reynard883.com/misc/layout.jpg

Edit2: The damaged monocoque in the picture isn't how it is, but how it might become if I'm let loose in it.

Also, are you looking for a promotion in the sadness ratings?

Drawn with the brilliant artistic flair I've become accustomed to when viewing your work Mr Cliffe.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Some amazing TristanArt to help visualise it coming up...

Edit: here it is

That looks like an almost fully stressed engine to me, how substantial is that A frame? An unstressed chassis should have a full tub/spaceframe structure with engine mounting at both ends. If the A frame is substantial enough you may find that that could be an unstressed engine but I would have said to find out about it pretty soon. Simply finding out what kind of modifications have been done to the TOMs block should give you a good idea.

Quote :

Edit2: The damaged monocoque in the picture isn't how it is, but how it might become if I'm let loose in it.

That's reassuring you could do with fitting wheels and suspension is quite a popular option nowadays. If your on a tight budget you may want to skip out the brakes

It's a standard 3S block, with no modifications. Or to the block. (Talking about the TOM's stuff). It even has 3S stamped on it, but no corresponding chassis number which indicates it was bought from Toyota as a lone engine rather than pinched out of a car).

The A-Frame tubes are about 3/4" OD. Not sure about ID. I'm guessing they'll be Chrome Moly.

Quote from tristancliffe :

It's a standard 3S block, with no modifications. Or to the block. (Talking about the TOM's stuff). It even has 3S stamped on it, but no corresponding chassis number which indicates it was bought from Toyota as a lone engine rather than pinched out of a car).

The problem is that modifications to a block are not easily visible and often start with a production block, new or otherwise like the rumored BMW Brabham turbo blocks that were supposedly found lying around outside out of a road car that had done 100000 miles, I don't believe that for a minute but it is possible they started life destined to go in a production car. As for the chassis your best bet would be to confirm that it'll be ok with someone knows about your chassis to do that than end up wrecking a perfectly good block. I guess TOMs probably would remark a modified block being an official part of Toyota and all.

I'll inquire a bit further, but I suspect it'll be fine.

Incidentally, I heard that the Brabham blocks weren't used, but had been sitting for ages doing nothing. Over the years the internal stresses had dissipated, making them ideal for tight tolerence racing. I very much doubt they'd be used (although they'd be rebored and checked thoroughly for cracks/distortion, so maybe they could).

Quote from tristancliffe :

Incidentally, I heard that the Brabham blocks weren't used, but had been sitting for ages doing nothing. Over the years the internal stresses had dissipated, making them ideal for tight tolerence racing. I very much doubt they'd be used (although they'd be rebored and checked thoroughly for cracks/distortion, so maybe they could).

I suspect in reality they were probably a batch of blocks that *happened* to end up being made of completely different materials.

not to be an ass but i believe you gents have jacked a lad's thread

Not entirely. We answered his questions and statements, and put him straight. Whilst we were doing this we moved to power restrictions and engine mounting methods. Natural evolution once the thread was 'done'.